Dr. Kevin Baxter: Education, Committed.

AUDREY SCOTT:

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You’re listening to Think. Pair. Share. with me, Audrey Scott.

Today we’ll meet Dr. Kevin Baxter, the new Mary Ann Remick Leadership program director.

Kevin served as the senior director and superintendent of schools for the Archdiocese of Los Angeles and most recently was the chief innovation officer at the National Catholic Educational Association. Kevin has also taught at Loyola Marymount University and taught and served as an executive coach in the Remick Leadership Program.

His combination of experience leading Catholic schools as a principal and superintendent while also teaching leadership in higher education is exceptional and we are excited about his ideas to lead the nation’s premier formation program for Catholic school leaders.

Ok, Kevin, as a brand new member of the team – some people know you and some not as well, so I’m going to weave a few “get-to-know-you, your family, your background” opportunities in amongst the fun questions and certainly when we delve more into the crux of the conversation. Hope that sounds good and I’m going to start off with congratulations and welcome!

 

KEVIN BAXTER:

Thank you so much, Audrey. It's great to be with you today looking forward to our conversation. 

 

AS: Thank you. So am I. You're gonna to have a chance to talk to so many people, and we’ll only scratch the surface here today, but I really appreciate you being here and we'll jump into those fun questions.

What’s a yearbook-style superlative you’d give to yourself in high school and your current self?

 

KB: In high school, I would probably say athlete. Yeah, I played multiple sports and I was captain of the sports team so I think that probably would have been something people would have said. Superlative now, I hope, mature and humble. 

 

AS: I love those words. We’ll actually circle back to the humble question. If you're an athlete in sports I think you're in the right place at Notre Dame so...

 

KB: That's right. Yes, I did get my doctorate at USC, I know that's a problem for some. 

 

AS: Thanks so much for your time, Kevin.

 

KB: Quickest podcast ever.

 

AS: All are welcome, so, alright great. Living in LA, you might not get very many of these but - aside from TV or reading inside - what’s your favorite thing to do on a rainy day?

 

KB: Play guitar. 

 

AS: Nice. I always wanted to play the drums, but never quite took it up. I think my family thanks me.

 

KB: But not during the podcast right? 

 

AS: That’s right! Number one rule, no pounding. Well, that’s wonderful. How long have you played guitar?

 

KB: Oh, a long time 20, 30 years, but I really just fiddle with it. I don't really consider myself a musician, but I love to play and my kids when they're little especially used to love to sing and so that was fun.

 

AS: That sounds so nice. We have an extras section for this. Maybe I’ll have you back on and you can play a couple things for us.

 

KB: Yeah. Sure!

 

AS: … And your kids can accompany. Tell me about your family.

 

KB: Yeah, so my wife Kim and I, we have six children. So, our oldest is 22. She's a former ACE Teaching Fellow so she graduated from the program last May. My years are all screwed up now. She spent two years in Phoenix. St John Vianney school and then our second is 20, he's in college in New Mexico, Then we have a junior in high school, a freshman in high school, a sixth grader and a third grader, so. Yeah, three boys, three girls. Yeah.

 

AS: Nice. Way to go! Nice and even.

 

KB: Perfect planning. 

 

AS: Good job. Well, welcome to you all.

 

KB: Thanks, Audrey. 

 

AS: Growing up, did your mother or father have a signature dish?

 

KB: You know my mom was a really good cook. I don’t know if that there was a — oh, you know what my mom did that I think is kind of a signature, it was a dessert. And she called it cottage pudding. I think it was like the bread pudding but she did this chocolate sauce for it that my brothers and sisters and I like — we still like talk about it as adults — and no one's been able to really fully replicate it so I think that maybe is the one thing I think about.

 

AS: Sounds delicious.

 

KB: Yes.

 

AS: This one might be a little silly, but an app mysteriously appears on your phone that does something amazing. What does it do?

 

KB: Oh, good one. Helps pick dinner for my kids every night. 

 

AS: Can’t you just serve them the cottage pudding?

KB: That’s right. We're always going to the store, like, what are we gonna do for dinner tonight. ‘I don’t know’. My wife joked ‘we have to feed them again’? So, if you hit the app and it just said, feed them this. 

 

AS: I think that would be a huge seller to tell you the truth. Oh, this is kinda applicable since you play the guitar. If you were to perform a duet with a famous musician, who would it be and why?  

 

KB: Oh gosh, there's no question to this one at all, it's Bruce Springsteen. So, I'm a huge Bruce Springsteen fan and that would be… no doubt about that one.

 

AS: Hey, there's been rumors that he might come to Notre Dame at some point, so

 

KB: There you go. Alright.

 

AS: Fingers crossed.

 

KB: I’m there.

 

AS: Sounds good. What’s the silliest fear you have? 

 

KB: You know, I get, right now this is a good time to ask me the question because we're trying to move the family across the country and so, look I’ll tell you this. So interestingly, this was like a week ago, I woke up and I'm spinning in my head. You know just nervous about everything, anxious about everything, packing, and we still don't have a house and we're trying to figure that out and the move and then the job and wrapping up my current job and so I was up early and I couldn't sleep and came downstairs to get coffee, and my wife kind of bounced and was like “Hey, how you doing?” you know and I was like oh gosh I'm spinning today I can't sleep I was just and she's like, oh well I'm feeling really great today, I'm feeling really positive today. So we realize as long as we balance each other out, she can have her anxiety attacks and I can have mine. But this is all a long way of saying, you know, all that anxiety then tends to be later in the day, it's all, it all passes, it's usually it's the anxiety you feel in the morning and you’re  spinning about every single thing and then later in the day you're like, what was I so worried about I just have to take a breath, and things will work out and it'll be okay, so.

 

AS: We’re ready to welcome you with open arms on this end so if that helps at all, you can lean on us, too.

 

KB: It does, and people have been great so that's wonderful.

 

AS: Good. I’m so glad. And this actually kind of maybe is a little bit of a bridge, because I know you're going to want to achieve a lot of things when you get here but um what is the craziest most outrageous thing you want to achieve.

 

KB: Well, the craziest, most outrageous thing I'd like to achieve is thriving Catholic schools across the United States. Right, I mean I think that's people who are passionate about Catholic schools and are in this work, you know it hasn't been a great couple of decades, you know, in terms of the big picture. I mean they're obviously great stories and great, great successes but the big, big vision would be to see Catholic schools really start to thrive and grow and and continue to do great work for generations to come. And I think that's the driving passion of the work.

 

AS: With that goal in mind, of helping Catholic schools thrive and grow, can you please share a bit about the experiences that led you to be here now accepting this role with Remick?

 

KB: Sure. Kind of my background, you know, has been in Catholic schools, obviously I have been principal and then superintendent Los Angeles, and when I was in Los Angeles, the big goal was this vision of growth and this vision of growth really anchored in leadership and innovation so really thinking about leadership and these areas of faith formation, Catholic identity, rigorous academics, really good stewardship practices, innovation in terms of just never being comfortable for where we are, and so it’s that cycle and culture of continuous improvement, so that was kind of the frame vision for us.

 

And so when I went to the NCEA, it was for a completely different role, which was really needed at that point. After I'd spent 10 years in the superintendent role I was ready to kind of have a little bit — I sometimes feel like I've described like some type of sabbatical and that's not fair to the work I was doing at NCEA — but, but the intensity of the size of the system, and the management and the 24-7 nature of the job, and all of that just became a lot after 10 years. And so the NCEA job was great because it was much more creative, much more innovative, much more allowed me to do those without the responsibility for managing a team and doing a lot of that type of work. That time has been, has been great, and I've enjoyed it, and I've had more opportunities to work with the National Catholic landscape that, Catholic school landscape that I think is great. I think at this point, what I'm, what really attracted me to Remick is the whole leadership piece. And I've said this in the interviews and with folks there, that it's it's the one university leadership preparation program for Catholic schools that really is nationwide. And so I think that scope, and the capacity to influence leaders for Catholic schools across the country. I don't think there's a place like that. That was the appeal really.

 

AS: Leadership can mean a lot of things to a lot of people, I think. What does leadership mean to you? And what are the qualities of a good leader?

 

KB: It's a great, great question and I think it's a complex question in so many ways because leadership depends on so many factors, most of which I think are within the individual's control. There are many that are outside of the leader’s control, and just quick example of that would be, when I used to work with principals, a lot of times principals would take on a school that was really struggling and had major challenges and maybe would face closure in a matter of years if something dramatic wasn't done. They had to take a whole different approach than if someone took on a school that was pretty stable and had good leadership and they were inheriting a pretty solid program. It requires two different styles of leadership. Leadership in my mind really is about how you compel an organization, and you can think about this even beyond schools, an organization, to, to commit to a vision, and then put in place a strategy that's followed by tactics to achieve that vision. So leadership in my mind always breaks down to this vision strategy, tactics, right, what's the vision and that vision almost should be an unattainable goal when I talk about, we should have 10 million kids in Catholic schools in the United States or something you know you put some big huge goal out there that's way too big, by the way. The highest we ever had was five and a half so I don't even know why I said 10 million but, but my point is like you want to set that kind of goal that's just out there that we're striving for that. And then the strategy is what are you putting in place to do that. And then the tactics are what are we doing on a daily basis, you know, daily, monthly, quarterly, you know, kind of process to achieve that. That's kind of the basis for leadership, but I do feel like so many things are determined by, by the reality and by the scenario that's present when you come in and lead an organization.

 

AS: Let’s stay with the leadership idea for a minute, ‘cause you’re right, it’s so complex. I’m sure you get that question often and you’re like, okay, goodness I couldn’t possibly answer that in a couple of minutes, but I appreciate you outlining that a little bit for us. You mentioned mature and humble earlier. Do you think it’s possible to be a humble leader and what does that mean?

 

KB: Absolutely, I think, I think humility is, is essential for leadership. I know in Remick they've got this kind of concept of humility is not thinking less of ourselves it's thinking of ourselves less right so this whole idea that it's not about diminishing yourself, because you have to have belief and I always, I love paradoxes when you talk about leadership and there are a bunch of different paradoxes I like and one is this confidence-humility paradox because leaders need to have a sense of confidence in themselves, they need to believe in themselves and there are certain scenarios where you need to be confident. But there also needs to be a humility. There needs to be a sense that no one individual ever does anything by his or herself, you just don't. The only way you accomplish things is through collaboration and through effort and through listening to others and knowing when you need to seek help, and knowing when you need to ask those questions. I mentioned maturity and humility initially too because I do feel like just by virtue of the leadership experiences I've had, and I think about this a lot, you know, I'd like to believe that I'm more effective as a leader today than I was five years ago, and five years ago I think I was more effective than I was five years before that. And my, my hope and dream would be a year, two, three years from now, I'll be more effective than I am today. And it's mostly just due to the experiences that you have and if you're approaching it with that humble collaborative mindset. And you recognize the importance of relationships, and, and how those really are integral to how we lead, then, then you should be growing and developing and learning and maturing, every, every single year. And that, that we want to see that in all our leaders right and and and that sense that that we all have more to learn that we're never at the end game, no one ever fully says, I'm done.  I'm a leader or I'm where I need to be. I think that's the important piece that we just recognize we're on that continuous journey.

 

AS: Yeah I agree. I do think it's such an interesting idea, as you mentioned this paradox between confidence and humility, because people aren't going to follow somebody who doesn't think they have something to offer right.

 

KB: Right.

 

AS: Then making room for other people's ideas, building people up, as you say. What are some of the ways that you think are most foundational to finding those good leaders and to having them have enough confidence in themselves to step up to that next level?

 

KB: Leadership is, I think in some ways, very similar to teaching, in that there's theory, there's a lot of literature. There's coursework, there’s degrees, all those things are important, and can be very important. Yet, I think you gain the most from doing, and you gain the most from actually doing the work, and from being in the environment and and experiencing all of that. So in some ways, new leaders, I think really would benefit from from hearing from people who have that experience and then listening to them and really trying to grow in their own in their own leadership. Maybe I'll frame it this way, you know where I've seen people have problems sometimes are — and I'll be very stereotypical — there's no one specifically in mind. But people who come in and act like they know everything, right, or they feel like you know I've got it all right, I've got this degree or I took this course or I read this book and I, this is how I know leadership will be and it follows very linearly. Leadership doesn't do that, you know, it's like once you think you've got some path COVID hits right, or once you think there's some route that you're going to take something happens. And so it's it's being responsive to that being flexible and being willing to seek help. I mean I think that's probably one of the core things that I appreciate, now, maybe more than I did 20, 30 years ago, that you know if you have some major problems seek help. Go to somebody and talk it through and whether that's a trusted colleague, whether that's a mentor, somebody to be able to talk things through so you can you can get other perspectives and help to frame that out. Now, I worry sometimes people, they, they, think that's going to reflect poorly on me or it's going to somehow say that I'm not a good leader because I can't do this on my own. And I think that's just such a false way to think about leadership because we all need help, we all need assistance.

 

AS: But I think you’ve hit on something that has resonated for me, too. I think people do fear not having the answer. To be vulnerable enough to say I’m learning too, or I’m willing to continue to learn. I’m willing to raise you up because you had a good idea, as well. That somehow that takes away from them but actually that probably makes them a better leader.

 

KB: Yeah you know it's interesting as you say that Audrey I think about a time. I can't remember when this was but, but probably five years maybe, somewhere around 2014 2013 I'd been superintendent for the elementary schools for four or five years maybe. And I remember feeling very frustrated by some things like at the diocesan level, bureaucratic things. I always loved the work with principals and love that getting to schools and that piece of it, but there were things within the bureaucracy that can get frustrating at times, and we had a principal meeting. And I remember getting up and talking to the you know the 220 principals or so, and and saying something to the effect of my, I was feeling frustrated I didn't get into details I didn't said anything specific, but I said you know gosh I'm just feeling really, I'm feeling overwhelmed right now and feeling pressure and feeling, and I just just kind of open to them and and by that point I established relationships and people knew me pretty well. In my mind, if I if I would have said, after the fact that what I said it was a throwaway line almost you know, it wasn't something that was the feature but I just kind of expressed my own frustration. I can't tell you how many principals reached out to me afterwards and said gosh it was so great to hear you express that because I felt the same way or you expressing that helped me know that I'm not alone in my own frustration and, and so that was an aha moment for me in terms of being willing to share when we experience these things, and because every single person goes through it and, and somehow in our own minds when we tell ourselves that we're, we're weak or we're not effective or something because of it. That's just not, there's no basis in reality for that it's just our own human, I think inclination to say we have to handle this all on our own.

 

AS: Maybe let our ego get out of the way for a second.

 

KB: Right, exactly right. Exactly right. 

 

AS: It’s scary to let go or let yourself be seen a little bit as being human.

 

KB: Sure. And that's where the maturity comes in, I think, really importantly, is that the older you get, the more you realize that I don't need to impress anybody, I don't need to, I'm comfortable with who I am. You know, I know I've got a family that loves me. You know, I know I've got friends that love me and it's like I don't, and again this is I think the cycle of life in some ways. I've really wrestled with this fact too how much of it comes just with age, and time, because you know when I was 30 years old and a principal I was, I was a lot of these things I'd say now like I wouldn't have seen me that way I would have been much more. And so it came through experience and through time, and through you know a lot of effort and work and and mistakes and failure and all of those things helped to get to that point. That's where I think new leaders really need to be open to listening to people who've been through it. That's a, that's a big key I think because those, those veteran leaders who've been through a number of those experiences really can provide that perspective that I think a lot of people need sometimes early on because when, when you're a first year principal, and your best teacher says, you know, she's leaving to move across the country, like you're devastated, you're absolutely devastated, and then the veteran leader can tell you it's going to be okay. You're going to find another teacher, it's going to be okay, you know, you kind of puts it all into perspective for you.

 

AS: Yeah. I like that idea a lot. I’m trying to think, if you were recruiting for Remick and you’re talking to someone for these people who are taking a chance at being a leader — is there something you might say to them?

 

KB: I think the big thing with leadership, and the most effective way, and this happened to me personally when I was a teacher, is someone to tap you on the shoulder, someone to come and say, ‘Have you ever thought about leadership? Have you ever thought about being a principal?” Because I remember when that happened to me as a teacher, and I remember thinking, Are you crazy, like, you know, what are you talking about, like I had never even thought about it in my own head until that point. But after that point, I thought about it a lot, you know, and started to think about how, what does that what does that mean? I remember I was getting my doctorate at USC, sorry. And one of my, one of my dear mentors, dear friends now really dear friend, his name's Karl Cohn, he was a, was on my dissertation committee who was a professor of mine just still and still a very very good friend, and he was superintendent in Long Beach, the public school system there for 10 years. Very well known successful superintendent. And I was, I think a second-year principal at the time I had been a principal for not even two full years, and I remember him sitting me down as in Kevin when you're going to become a superintendent. And I remember looking at him going,  I didn't even really want to come out of the classroom I was pretty happy teacher, like what are you talking about being a superintendent, and he said Kevin every good superintendent I've ever met, never wanted to come out of the classroom. And so I think when you're talking to people about leadership, it's really important to stress the fact that we're educators, we're talking about, educators, and I have this whole thing that I talk to people about every time you make a decision about taking a, I don't even want to say a higher level position but because the teachers are so valuable. But when you're a teacher, you've got a classroom full of 25 kids, and you over the course of a year you build really strong relationships with them you get to know them intimately really because they depending on the grade level but you know they write for you and you see them grow and learn and, and, you know at the end of the year if you've done your job, they’re gonna miss you and it's all those really great experiences. When you become a principal you lose that you do, you lose that, but then what you have the capacity to do is to build those relationships with teachers, and some with parents right so that's your, that's who you're then trying to work with. If you become a superintendent or move to like a diocesan level, you lose that, but then you have kind of a classroom of principals that you're forming that with, so every step, you lose a level of intimacy, but you gain scope right you gain the capacity to influence and so when you're talking to people about leadership, I think it's always really important to be honest with them that there's some trade offs. They're really good trade offs, but you know what, if a person is going to tell me, I really am passionate about teaching and I know I'm having an impact and my kids and that's what feeds me every single day. And even if you want me to be a principal, I don't know if I could give that up, I'd say keep teaching for now. Keep teaching for now, that's really where you feel called to be. We need great teachers, but know that this is also something that you could pursue that could be life-giving, and satisfying and enriching and you're still an educator, and try to stress that point to them that it's a route they can take that can provide some really great, you know great benefits, professionally.

 

AS: That’s great advice and I’m sure many people have taken it — and will! What makes a great Catholic school to you?

 

KB: So this is a this is a loaded question in some ways because I have said now for the last few years — I get pushback on it — but it gives me an opportunity to really fully explain. But what I've said is that you know we've never closed a great Catholic school in the US, I don't think we've ever closed a great truly great capital G R EA T great Catholic school. We've closed a lot of good Catholic schools and even very good Catholic schools but we've never closed a great Catholic school. And why I say that because, great Catholic schools do really two things, and a third, I'd say is a consequence of the first two but a third is important. The two things they do is they have a really clear Catholic identity, and they do faith formation, extremely effectively, and that faith formation is for students it's for families, it's for teachers and staff, right, so, so you have clear Catholic identity evident in the school, and faith formation taking place. Second thing they do really well is they have really strong academic outcomes, and they measure those outcomes, they look at data, they're transparent with data, they share their data, and when they don't hit certain targets or if they're not where they need to be, they're continually seeking ways to improve. The third is just management, right, stewardship of resources and they run the school effectively. I always feel like those are related to the first two, because what you're really saying with those first two is it's a value proposition. I like to say that Catholic schools charge for a product that's free down the street. So we have to make sure that our value proposition is really clear and that we always start with our Catholic identity and the fact that that has to be who we are. If that's diminished in a Catholic school, we're a charter school that charges tuition. Catholic identity has to be there and we have to do better, I feel like with our academic transparency, data, but the basic point is, if we do those things and we create a great Catholic school and great Catholic schools don't close. Great Catholic schools don't close because obviously parents are attracted, kids are going to come, they'll sacrifice to make sure they can pay the tuition. Philanthropy wants to support them, bishops love them, you know, the pastors, pastors love them, those schools are just kind of magnets for for energy and investment and enthusiasm. And so the job I think of everyone who's committed to Catholic schools across the United States should be let's make every single Catholic school, great. Like every diocesan office, NCEA, Notre Dame, all the other university Catholic universities we should all be out there trying to make Catholic schools great and really focusing on these, these core areas where we can elevate the value proposition so people see that value, recognize that value, and then they want to participate and be involved within the school.

 

AS: It sounds so easy when you say it so clearly.

 

KB: Right, very complex to do — easy to say.

 

AS: It is complex. How do we make that value proposition known and understood?

 

KB: We have to be willing to look honestly at our results. And again I will speak from my experience as superintendent Los Angeles, and actually I can speak a little bit from my experience, as, as Chief Innovation Officer at NCEA because the schools I've seen across the country. There is a tendency, from some and and I would, I would say these are Catholic educators, but they're also people in philanthropy, or people in certain, you know who maybe alumni and people who have like a historical vision, historical understanding of Catholic education that at some point in our history when you saw Catholic school on the side of a building that automatically equated to to quality. Well today, parents are savvy, they're going to ask you for data, they're going to want to look at results, they're going to want to say, how do you compare to the local public school or how do you compare to, to this. And we have to be willing to ask ourselves those hard questions and really measure ourselves against those, those metrics. The metrics parents are going to want are academic performance. I also feel, this is a little bit of a side note, but that Catholic schools have to create metrics around those intangible aspects like the faith formation, the sense of community, the sense of family, all these pieces that really make a Catholic school so special. We have to create metrics around those so we can measure those two because I think that data is also data we should be sharing with with parents and prospective parents. And the last thing I'll say just about kind of communicating this and and emphasizing this, I think our focus within Catholic schools has to be marketing to our current parents as much as, as it is to prospective parents. And one of the things I've noticed over the years is that we do, we have done, and we have kind of moved toward doing a better job of marketing externally - marketing to the prospective parents. What I think we've, we've lost a little bit of this is our current families. We, we don't have great retention, we have families who are leaving the school so maybe we go out and externally market, and bring 10 new families into the school but we, but we lose five families, right. So how are we doing that marketing internally in terms of how are we really communicating that value proposition to our current families. You know what is the value they're getting in third grade, but what's the value they're going to get in sixth grade and what's the value they're going to have when they graduate and go to high school and, and really how do we communicate that to our internal folks, as much as we're communicating it to to external potential parents.

 

AS: How do you create metrics around some of those things? I think that idea of the communities and how critical the school or church community is and what that means to even neighborhoods etc, but how do you quantify that?

 

KB: Yeah, so I don't know if you know the book. “Lost Classroom, Lost Community” 

 

AS: I do.

 

KB: Okay, so that very important book and and Nicole Barnett and I've talked a lot about it since but, but the value to the community obviously is clear, clear there. And this is a little different than that book, but the way I would say you measure it is through what are often called school culture surveys. So the surveys that can collect data on, “I feel valued at this school, my teacher cares about me as a human being, you know, I'm, I'm able to pray at the school”  you get, obviously some religious kind of faith formation questions in there as well. You know my classmates helped me to succeed, you can you can frame questions around these things we want to capture and we have some of these surveys, I know diocese have some of them too and for accreditation sometimes they're part of it and there are a couple of organizations, we looked at, at NCEA that were doing this in a more robust robust way. But that's the piece that I think we could collect and really measure over time because you know you also want to have parent surveys in terms of how they feel connected to the school and how they feel committed. You know these like stereotypical things that we all, maybe think about in Catholic schools. What I like to say is every single teacher knows every single kid's name, it's not just the kids in their class you know and you often know especially communities that are you know, teachers, that’ve been there for a while but, you know  their relationships. That whole like networking and community sense is just such a vital part, we sometimes call it the secret sauce right, that, that we have to be able to market and communicate because I think that's, that's the important value that we bring to the educational space, and I think that's something that can be communicated obviously within our communities, but also should be committed to the wider kind of ed reform community in terms of, of the value that we bring that might be, might be unique in some ways.

 

AS: I agree, and I have a few follow ups, if I could.

 

KB: Yes.

 

AS: And maybe these are tangentially connected, but has there been a long standing idea that you just need more kids in the school? Enrollment is sort of the quantifying factor?

 

KB: That is an incredible question and so relevant. One of the last pieces of work I was doing at NCAA was a book. It's coming out and it's called “Greatness In Smallness: Micro Schools,” and my co-author Jill Annabell has been tremendous. And the basic idea is that we shouldn't use enrollment as that key metric, it can be a metric, but I feel like what, what we've done in Catholic education especially over the last 10, 15 years is we've seen enrollment as the only metric, and you hear a diocese that say a school that gets under 200 students is on, you know that risk for closure. And then you have other dioceses that say 150 or whatever it is that it seems like it's a different number depending on the diocese. And what I'd rather do is say well enrollment can be can be a metric because that whole value proposition I talked about, you know, that value proposition should attract people, and you should have kids wanting to come to those great Catholic schools. But what our work around micro schools really showed us is that there are Catholic schools across the country in, especially in more rural areas that have had 100 Kids 120 Kids for 30 or 40 years and they've, they've been extremely successful and they've done well. 

 

AS: Day to day in the schools, and I think this is one of the huge successes of Catholic schools, I think, this cultivating of vibrant school and church communities — camaraderie for lack of a better word, maybe — is it important to grow a spirit of that collaboration and networking, not only locally, but on a national scale. Does that make sense?

 

KB: It absolutely makes sense. Two thoughts. One of the things about Catholic schools, and again, this is kind of the one of those trite things that people within Catholic schools will say sometimes is that we're, we're blessed by our autonomy and we're cursed by our autonomy, meaning you know Catholic schools have this great ability to be to be autonomous and that they can make decisions at the local level and we're not a school system right we're not like a public school system where curriculum is scripted throughout and, you know, everything is done at the diocesan office. It's, it's more localized and that local response can be very, very good, right, but they say we're cursed by it too because then you can have a negative environment, maybe leadership that's less than stellar, all of those things. So, this idea that we are more connected, I think is really really important I think your point about camaraderie, we use the term, you know subsidiarity a lot, because that communicates in the Catholic mindset about the autonomy, but there's also this concept of solidarity that we're all together and we're connected and, and really building that sense that I'm in a Catholic school and I have connection to other Catholic schools, not just in my diocese, but maybe across the country, right. So how do we build that? There's a book called, “Cultures Built to Last”, by Fullen and DuFour and they coined this term systemness. And this systemness idea is that I'm committed to my own school but I also have a commitment to the system at large, how am I, how am I giving back. You know my time, how am I giving back resources, how am I giving back in different ways to the system at large so that's that's one piece of it. But the, the other thing that I'm struck by, and this is where I think there's a huge opportunity is, is with the tragedy of the pandemic and obviously the personal toll, which has just been horrific. What we've been able to do is really network people with Zoom and network people with these tools that have been really wonderful. And it's allowed us to do things that we wouldn't have been able to do 15 years ago. And what we should learn from that is that we now have the capacity to network people across the United States, in a really easy way — people are used to this — they want to be in person, of course we want education to be in person people all want that we can do that with the vaccines coming on wonderful. But what about micro schools? One of the big things in our book is how do we network these folks who might be moving to this new model so you might do a micro school in Texas, and maybe a micro school in Seattle, and then a micro School up in, you know, in Michigan, and so why don't we get a, you could get a network together where you're talking to someone on a monthly basis, and saying these are the problems I'm having or these are the successes I'm seeing, and let's strategize and network and build relationships and help to kind of problem solve these things in a more effective way. And that's where I think NCEA could really play a great role. I think other again large kind of those national entities really shouldn't be playing a role because that networking piece, I think gets to that sense of community that we can begin to build more nationwide, while always respecting that autonomy that everyone really wants to appreciate at the local site level which I think is good, right, I think it's good to be responsive to your local community too so we don't want to necessarily give that up, but, but we want people to feel that support from the wider community too.

 

AS: You’re so right about that. And I know one of the things that impressed me in learning more about the Remick program was the people that are in it have really someone to go to. What you’re describing sort of sounds like a cohort of schools. Is that doable, you think?

 

KB: Absolutely. I've been an executive coach in Remick for the last two years. I've got a cohort of five Remick leaders that I've worked with. It's been actually life giving for me. They've been just a wonderful group and it's been great, monthly to kind of gather with them on Zoom, and that really helped to stimulate my thinking at NCEA. We started to build out these what we call professional learning networks, and we and we have this concept of this idea of you could, you could do, first year principals you could do first year superintendents, you could do athletic directors, you could do art teachers I mean, you can see these groups getting formed and you could keep them relatively small five to 10 people, and set them up with maybe a moderator to to help guide that right and so I think what you said too, is, and this is really important, schools with similar realities, right? Schools with struggling enrollment, schools with bursting enrollment, big Catholic high schools, small Catholic high schools. If you could get people just to network and you had five other people that you were going to connect with, you know, every other month on Zoom just to talk things through, people would, I think that would love that and I think that's a great way to again build that connection in that community at a national level, without having to travel and without having to invest in plane trips and again I think COVID has really helped to paint a path of how we can do that effectively.

 

AS: Yeah, maybe that silver lining.

 

KB: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. 

 

AS: You've had so many varied experiences, in those you'll have had challenges, what kind of challenges can help inform your new role and how can that lead to future success?

 

KB: Sure. One thing I think I come to the position with, and this is because of my time as superintendent. I've seen almost every reality at a school. Right? I mean, we had about 215 elementary schools, 51 high schools when I was there's it’s about 75,000 kids. And, obviously every single school issue you might imagine, I would say probably popped up over the course of my 10 years at some point. And so having that just understanding of that scope I think helps me to recognize the great richness that is present in Catholic schools across the United States. Regardless of your, whether you're rural, whether you're urban, whether you're large, whether you're small, whether you're serving a largely minority population. Whatever those realities are… that is something that I bring to the position. I think what that also does is I know those challenges, I mean I know the challenges and I think the challenges we have, are, are pretty clear. I mean in terms of enrollment, I think obviously still a major issue. How we come out of COVID, I think is big. We had a really significant drop in enrollment last year. A lot of that was in our early childhood and preschool age. So the big question too is what comes back? Does that come back to some degree this year and how do we see that and how do we really tap into that. I think how we really adapt, and utilize some of these new technologies that we've, we've been able to utilize during COVID, and really systematize them and we're starting to think about them in more constructive ways so you see some diocese starting to build out that they're going to have a virtual Catholic school one virtual Catholic school for, for their diocese those types of things but, but how do we look at other ways to make sure that we're, we're connecting. And then the other big challenge, I guess. Well, maybe I'll just frame it this way. I think one of the things that also really came out of COVID — that I think is pretty significant — is parents became very empowered in their own understanding of their child's education. What I mean by that is with, with various schools, approaching shut downs and open and hybrid in different ways. Parents really started to say well wait if I'm not happy about that what are my options, right? I think that, married with the fact that we do have some things on the school choice front, that are that are optimistic and hopeful. I think that also is both a challenge, but I think a tremendous opportunity in terms of how do we tap into parents being willing to give us a look, and maybe consider Catholic schools as an option. And do we start to have more options in terms of funding support for those who, who would require it, you know, to be able to access a Catholic school.

 

AS: When you’re looking to transform Catholic schools by transforming leaders is there a inclusion and equity piece that you have a thought about that might help direct some of that?

 

KB: I absolutely do and obviously this is a huge issue, in Catholic schools and in society in general. I come at this from my perspective in Los Angeles where, I think my last year we had 70% of our students in our Catholic schools at the elementary level, were, were minority kids, you know, we had less than I think 30% were Caucasian kids in our Catholic schools. And that's our reality in Los Angeles, you know, one of the things we talk about a lot, you know, just the just kind of what that does to your, your approach. So that's piece number one. Piece number two I think, is this idea that what I think we have to do a better job of, and this is within Catholic schools and maybe just within society in general, is understanding that we are blessed and broken by our individual unique experience. What do I mean by that? We all have this experience that we've had, because of our upbringing. Right, and whether we were brought up in a stable two parent home with multiple siblings, whether we have a single parent who raised us in an inner city environment, whether we're black, we're brown, we you know, whatever those experiences are. They have shaped us and they blessed us, because they're wonderful things that come from those upbringings. We're also all broken by those experiences and broken because we're blind to the privilege that we have, we're blind to the needs of others, we tend to think only of our own issues. And so why equity is so important, in my mind from a leadership perspective is we are at a loss if we don't have diversity of those experiences around the table when we make decisions, because every single person is going to bring that unique perspective into the conversation, and good leaders want to have as much variety as possible in order to make the best decision possible. Right, so if we close those off either intentionally or unintentionally, we're not as we're not as good as we could be as leaders and so that's that's the piece. And then the final thing I would just say is I think at NCEA we tried to be really intentional about this, in terms of the professional development, how we really were intentional about speakers what our work was and I think it just speaks to the ongoing work and effort that's necessary and needed in order to make to make significant change. And it's also going to take time, I think that's the other thing really just, I sometimes say that the best thing we can do is raise our kids to be better than ourselves and then our kids can raise their kids to be better than them and then, you know, at some point we can reach that promised land, but it's going to take those generations I think making sure that that kids are raised, better than than we are.

 

AS: Thank you for sharing that. Are you hopeful for the future of Catholic schools—of Catholic leaders?

 

KB: I am. People, I just laugh because people I think sometimes criticize me for being overly optimistic, or I don't know optimistic, more. I'm very passionate about this, clearly. I mean that's the thing that I think does drive me is just—it’s that transformational aspect of Catholic education—it's having a child in a seat, knowing that he or she is loved by God, and that they, they can do nothing in their lives to lose that love, if they're always willing to come back to God for forgiveness and and and redemption, and really feeling that in the in the depths of their, their soul so that they then can can lead lives of meaning and purpose and obviously you know great success in terms of academic achievement and then and then professional achievement. That's the driving passion for me and so I will always remain optimistic that we can be all of that in those communities that really, really need Catholic schools to be around, because that's the environment where kids can most reach and most realize their true God given potential.

 

AS: I don't know what we could possibly say past that so the only thing I have left to say is thank you honestly, for your time and being so open to sharing with us today. I really appreciate it we're looking forward to welcoming you here with us in the next couple of weeks and being along on the journey with you.

 

KB: Thanks Audrey so much. It's been a great conversation so I'm very grateful to you and I'm looking forward to being there in a few weeks, so I look forward to meeting you in person.

 

AS: Thank you. I do, too. You take care. And thank you all.

 

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