Will Newkirk: Education, Affirmed.

0:00:00.0 Will Newkirk: The most popular Minnesota candy is Hot Tamales.

[laughter]

[music]

0:00:18.0 Audrey Scott: Welcome to this modern education podcast that explores learning from the everyday exchange of thoughts and ideas to the theories and practices behind entire systems. Think education is cool. So do we. So we pair two conversations, learn about our guests, then learn from our guests, Share your takeaways and come back for more. You're listening to Think Pair Share with me Audrey Scott. Will Newkirk is the director of the American Indian Catholic Schools Network at the University of Notre Dame. Previously he served as the assistant director for the Institute for Educational Initiatives, where he also worked on the pastoral team for the Alliance for Catholic Education's Teaching Fellows program. A proud Minnesotan. His deep and wholehearted commitment to social justice inspires as he strives to help bring about truth and healing in Word and in Deed it is my great pleasure to welcome him to Think Pair Share today. Hi Will.

0:01:19.9 WN: Hey, great to see you.

0:01:21.5 AS: Great to see you too. Thank you so much for being Here.

0:01:23.6 WN: Good to be here with you Addy. Happy Friday. Happy Football Friday.

0:01:27.1 AS: That's True. They're in for a cool evening tomorrow night I think. I'm not loving that, but I guess we'll just all have to make do and get out our scarves and mittens. But yeah.

0:01:36.8 WN: People can cuddle in inside and listen to our podcast following.

0:01:39.9 AS: Ooh, I like that very much.

0:01:42.0 WN: That means a very quick edit for you.

0:01:43.7 AS: I Was just gonna say of course then it means I won't be able to go to the game because... Quickly be working on it. But it's always a good idea to sort of, sit by the fireplace and with a hot cup of Joe and listen to the podcast. So, thanks. This is gonna be a great conversation. I really appreciate you being here.

0:02:01.0 WN: Oh, well really appreciate the opportunity.

0:02:03.7 AS: It's just your luck. Fortunately or unfortunately that it is October and so that means sort of Halloween. That is the theme of the grab bag, like it or not...

0:02:13.0 WN: Great.

0:02:14.3 AS: Today.

0:02:14.4 WN: I'm a big fan of the grab bag so far with Andrea Christensen, Matt Kloser. So this is, high pressure, but pressure is a privilege as Billie Jean King says. So I'm excited to get a shot at this grab bag.

0:02:28.0 AS: Oh My gosh. Great quote and no pressure. It's just all fun. I hope. But, I like the idea of a grab bag too 'cause I just put a bunch in so I kind of know what's in there. But yeah, thanks to Matt Kloser, sort of stepping up our game.

0:02:38.7 WN: Absolutely.

0:02:39.7 AS: And Andrea did, she was such a good support and did so well. So here is the bag itself.

0:02:44.1 WN: Oh wow. Okay, great. I didn't know there was an actual bag.

0:02:47.4 AS: An actual bag.

0:02:48.3 WN: Or bag as I say with my Minnesota accent.

0:02:50.8 AS: Yes. And we're gonna get to that actually a little special Treat... A special Treat for you for Halloween. So, let's see, I guess, I hope we pick out the one I'm talking about. At least we all know some of the standards for Halloween. But I thought I'd try to pick a few more sort of obscure facts or at least obscure to the survey of one me [laughter] as I was making them up or finding them. So yeah. Some more quirky ones I think.

0:03:15.1 WN: Okay. Great. We love quirky.

0:03:17.1 AS: Okay, good. True or false. Candy Corn was originally called Chicken Feed.

0:03:22.9 WN: True.

0:03:23.3 AS: Ooh. One for one. Excellent.

0:03:25.3 WN: That was so quirky. I just had to go through.

[laughter]

0:03:27.7 AS: Yay.

0:03:28.7 WN: Makes me even more concerned about what that is that we put into our bodies this time of year.

0:03:34.4 AS: But I think it's the candy people love to hate, but, I guess there's something nostalgic about it for me, so I usually tend to get a bag of it, which is weird because I think it is on people's most disliked candy list, but it's also one of the top sellers.

0:03:47.1 WN: Interesting.

0:03:48.2 AS: People still...

0:03:49.0 WN: Yeah, it's an odd, odd feeling when your teeth are kind of covered with, candy corn. But I like to make a fall mix, peanuts, pretzels.

0:03:58.6 AS: Yes.

0:04:00.0 WN: M&M's and sprinkle. You gotta sprinkle a few. Just, I mean, just to see the candy corn or chicken feed, is that what you called it? 

0:04:09.3 AS: Chicken feed. Yes. So whether you like it or not? It's here to stay, I think.

0:04:11.4 WN: Yeah.

0:04:12.8 AS: Okay. So let's see what's next. To give a little sound effect.

0:04:17.1 WN: Yeah. Is that an... What is that? And I love Catholic schools.

0:04:20.8 AS: It is actually, we Just...

0:04:22.8 WN: Uh oh, from our you know program.

0:04:24.5 AS: From you know, Yeah.

0:04:25.4 WN: Love that I'll give you an AICSN bag for the next one.

0:04:28.7 AS: You know what? That's good. I should get to each bag. Ooh, I like it.

0:04:31.9 WN: That'd be really good.

0:04:32.6 AS: I love the suggestion box. We'll get us...

0:04:35.3 WN: Yeah. We're always branding. We're always marketing.

0:04:37.4 AS: Yes. Get your American Indian Catholic Schools Network swag here.

0:04:41.7 WN: Exactly. There we go.

0:04:43.2 AS: We're gonna Have to have a link.

0:04:43.9 WN: It has to be a pretty big bag to fit that whole title in. [laughter]

0:04:47.3 AS: I like It though.

0:04:47.9 WN: Which is fun. A big grab bag is a good grab bag.

[laughter]

0:04:50.7 AS: That's absolutely true. Let's see what this, next one is. Okay. This one's a little on the spookier side.

0:04:57.5 WN: Good. I thought honestly chicken feed, that was spooky enough. [laughter]

0:05:01.7 AS: I hope this is a little spookier, but you're right. Maybe, maybe Candy Corn is a little too. Okay. The now infamous Michael Myers mask from the movie Halloween is actually retooled from a real mask. Was it a clown mask, A mummy mask or a William Shatner mask? 

0:05:18.2 WN: Ooh. Okay. That's tricky because even before you gave the options, it's like, Oh, it's gotta be like an old hockey goalie mask. It's probably an homage to my Minnesota heritage.

0:05:29.7 AS: There you go.

0:05:31.1 WN: Okay. I guess William Shatner [laughter]

0:05:34.2 AS: It's still ridiculous not to be it, right? 

[laughter]

0:05:36.6 WN: Yeah. That's was actually the first time.

0:05:40.7 AS: The thing is, I couldn't think of any other famous people from that time, but it really is a William Shatner mask. But the story does include a clown mask.

0:05:48.0 WN: I'm so scared of clowns. When I was young, my family, we went out to dinner I think at the ground round. A clown was walking around. I was like four, five years old giving balloons and my mom and I had to sit in the car during the entirety of dinner because I couldn't even be in the establishment. So I could never have answered clown. That just would've been, it would've gone against everything I believe in [laughter] So glad to get it right and glad I didn't have to go that route.

0:06:13.0 AS: Wow. Thanks for sure. That story, that's, I feel so sad.

0:06:15.7 WN: Please, please, no more clown conversational questions or I have to take a break. We'll put pause.

0:06:24.1 AS: Okay, I promise. No more C-L-O-W-N questions. Well, I'm glad your mom was so good to you and did outside.

0:06:30.5 WN: Yeah, that was very kind of her.

0:06:32.0 AS: I hope they brought a doggy bag out to you.

[laughter]

0:06:34.1 WN: Yeah. I hope. I hope they did for her.

0:06:36.3 AS: That's true. That's true. Awesome. So at least according to the New York Times, when they interviewed I think Nick Castle, that when shooting the original 1978 film production designer, Tommy Lee Wallace picked up two masks from a Hollywood Boulevard Magic Shop because they had so little money apparently. The budget was super small. So they didn't have time to pour money to it.

0:06:55.4 WN: Tommy is so tough.

0:06:56.1 AS: Yeah, exactly. So Tommy came in with the clown mask on and we all said, "That's kinda scary." Then he put on the Shatner the mask and we stopped dad and said, "Oh my gosh, that's perfect." So they've painted it white and cut the eye holes out a little bit more and there you have it. So those are good. Two for two. You're doing great. Let's see who brought us jack-o'-lanterns? Was it the Irish, the French, or the Danish? 

0:07:21.7 WN: Oh, wow. Okay. So I am Irish and I take great pride in my Irish heritage and I think you do as well.

0:07:29.0 AS: I do.

0:07:30.0 WN: But I can't say I think of pumpkins in Ireland or in Irish heritage. So I'm gonna say the Danish because they're creative and Danish Scandinavian design is so top of the line. I bet jack-o'-lanterns are a great Danish tradition.

0:07:51.2 AS: I like that thought process very much. And who knows, but maybe they did. But my facts are your home country, your first idea was the Irish they're storytellers, I think.

0:08:04.4 WN: So when you nodded at me when I said Irish, it wasn't that you agreed about our pride of our heritage. You actually nodded at me because I was going in the correct direction.

0:08:14.3 AS: I did agree with you and I did think it was the right answer.

[laughter]

0:08:17.9 WN: Well, hey, that's good. Did they make them out of potatoes or out of pumpkins? Is my follow up question here.

0:08:24.7 AS: Yes, I think they did do pumpkins, although I've also read that they did like turnips and things like that too, I think so I don't wanna...

0:08:30.6 WN: Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

0:08:31.3 AS: Miss and all this is sort of what I've been able to garner from different sources. So I apologize if I get it wrong. But at least as the story goes, it says an Irish man named Stingy Jack tricked the devil and therefore was not allowed into heaven or hell. So he spent his days roaming the Earth carrying a lantern, hence the jack-o-lantern.

0:08:49.3 WN: I was gonna say, "Oh, lantern." That makes a lot of sense.

0:08:52.8 AS: Yes.

0:08:52.8 WN: Okay.

0:08:53.5 AS: So who knew? I thought it was a cute little story if nothing else.

0:08:56.5 WN: It's very cute.

0:08:57.5 AS: And we'll give you like two and a half credit 'cause you did mention the Irish and you thought possibly...

0:09:00.7 WN: Okay. That makes me feel better. Yeah. Thank you.

0:09:03.3 AS: Okay. Good. Good deal.

0:09:04.3 WN: Is this like, wait, wait, don't tell me where the points don't really matter? 

0:09:09.8 AS: Exactly.

0:09:10.5 WN: Okay. Good.

0:09:11.3 AS: I love that.

0:09:11.9 WN: I do too. I do too. Did you see it live? 

0:09:15.1 AS: I did. I used to live in Chicago, so I did get to go. It was so fun. I really loved it.

0:09:20.1 WN: So funny, yeah.

0:09:20.8 AS: I'm so glad it's continuing to have such great success.

0:09:23.9 WN: I just think Peter Sagal is one of the funniest people and the questions are hilarious and sometimes people get them right, sometimes they don't. But it's not what it's all about.

0:09:31.0 AS: It's not what it's all about. It's the fun banter, the stories you're sharing.

0:09:34.2 WN: Yeah.

0:09:34.7 AS: I won't harken that.

0:09:35.5 WN: The bits and banter as Matt Kloser said on episode 21.

0:09:39.3 AS: We're gonna have to trademark that. I told them right away, I'm like, "Trademark that and trademark the s'mores idea."

0:09:43.8 WN: Yeah, that's right. Okay. Boom.

0:09:45.7 AS: S'more than coffee. That's it. I'm trademarking it here people. That's a Matt Kloser... Let's try one more. We have time for one more.

0:09:52.9 WN: Oh, I thought this whole thing was only grab bags.

[laughter]

0:09:56.3 AS: That's what Matt wants...

0:09:57.5 WN: Oh, shoot.

[laughter]

0:10:00.0 AS: That's what Matt wanted and I'm sure that's not what Andrea wanted. She probably be like can we get to the...

0:10:04.1 WN: I'm still thinking about coffee ice cream from her, bird grab bags.

0:10:07.5 AS: It's so good. Okay. Well, so we'll do one more... Oh my gosh. Okay. Multiple choice. This is a multiple choice one. America's top 10 Halloween candies. Okay. So I'll give you five choices and you have to pick the top one. Okay. So M&M's, Reese's Cups, Starbursts, Sour Patch Kids or Skittles.

0:10:25.9 WN: Very interesting. M&M's for sure, personally I would enjoy. But my folks would always buy Skittles and Starbursts because they didn't like them as much so they'd be less likely to eat them.

0:10:38.0 AS: Oh my gosh, I've never thought of that.

0:10:40.0 WN: Yeah. So Reese's very popular as well. My wife historically has not loved the chocolate peanut butter combo, but recently has really come to love it. So all of these have some good merit to them. I don't think Sour Patch Kids are just quite as popular, although they're excellent. I think M&M's might be split, kinda split ticket with peanut M&M's.

0:11:04.2 AS: That's true.

0:11:05.3 WN: And I think Reese's can be tricky with peanut allergies. So I'm going down to Skittles and Starburst and it's been a long time, very long time since I've trick or treated. I wanna make that on the record. It's been a very long time. But I think there are a lot of the little two piece Starburst packages. So I'm gonna go with Starburst as the number one Halloween candy.

0:11:32.2 AS: I love your mentality on this and actually you're very close.

0:11:35.8 WN: Oh.

[laughter]

0:11:36.7 AS: You're also gonna get partial credit on this. But I read an article this year that said Skittles overtook Reese's Peanut Butter Cups. And I was surprised because I love Reese's Peanut Butter Cups.

0:11:47.9 WN: Yeah, I do too.

0:11:48.5 AS: But your thought process about it was very good, which is a lot of people are allergic more so than I think when...

0:11:53.9 WN: I guess that doesn't make the rest of America too concerned.

[laughter]

0:11:57.9 AS: I like Skittles but...

0:12:00.1 WN: Yeah. Taste the rainbow as I think grandma says. And they are good. One, then I snuck a couple and I was like, "Wow. They're kinda refreshing too."

0:12:05.9 AS: They're very refreshing and actually around Ace, they're so hospitable. I have all those candy dishes everywhere and Skittles do tend to sort of pop up quite often in those. So I've enjoyed a fun size pack myself...

0:12:18.6 WN: Absolutely.

0:12:19.2 AS: Now and again. But yeah, so I guess I couldn't really decide. Most places still say Reese's Peanut Butter Cups, but Skittles is definitely rising on the charts.

0:12:27.0 WN: Okay. Okay.

0:12:28.8 AS: Bonus question for you. I found another article that says top candy in each state. So since we have so nicely already mentioned Minnesota as your home state. [chuckle] Do you have any idea what is your state's top one? And I do not think you're gonna get it. [chuckle]

0:12:48.0 WN: Is it Nut Goodie? 

0:12:50.6 AS: Ooh. No but what the heck is that? 

0:12:53.7 WN: I think it's a... I don't think it's very famous, I think that might be made regionally. It's like a marshmallow peanut type of kind of... Yeah, it's quite delicious.

0:13:05.3 AS: I think this is a little bit more national than that, I think, but it certainly feels like it's not... I'm gonna tell you because I don't, I think it's super random: Hot Tamales.

0:13:14.4 WN: That is very interesting. I would not have guessed that, although my dad definitely would pick up some Hot Tamales from Menards or Fleet Farm or kind of like a home improvement store, definitely.

0:13:26.9 AS: Really? 

0:13:27.1 WN: Had some Tot Tamales in the car. So I can see that. I think I have evidence of that.

0:13:32.1 AS: Okay.

0:13:32.2 WN: Maybe because it gets so cold in the winter, the Hot Tamale kinda is an extra blast of warmth.

0:13:37.9 AS: Heat 'em from the inside out.

0:13:39.5 WN: Exactly. Exactly.

0:13:41.4 AS: Okay, good. And so this is where you also get bonus points in Indiana, number one? Starbursts.

0:13:47.9 WN: There we go. See, I was basing it off my local region.

0:13:53.5 AS: Yes.

0:13:54.3 WN: I gotta think local, always.

0:13:55.8 AS: I think you're getting a full point on that, plus you had the bonus from the Hot Tamales... I think we're five for five.

0:14:00.9 WN: Yeah, maybe six for five, honestly, I think.

0:14:05.0 AS: Yes. Six for five, you're the only one that scores higher.

0:14:07.0 WN: So we'll just stop there. Thank you Audrey it's been a really great conversation.

0:14:11.3 AS: Thanks so much for your time, Will.

0:14:12.5 WN: Have a wonderful weekend.

[chuckle]

0:14:13.7 AS: You too. Go Irish.

[chuckle]

0:14:14.8 WN: Have a blessed day.

0:14:18.3 AS: Sorry, you're not that lucky. You're, you gotta stay for a little bit longer.

0:14:21.7 WN: No, grateful, grateful to be.

0:14:24.8 AS: But actually, I think this is a good segue way 'cause we are talking about Minnesota, and I'd like to kind of bridge that gap and say, Hey, take us a little bit on that path from where you started out to Notre Dame and what you're doing now, and I realize that that's an enormous question, but if there's a way for you to just let us know a little bit about that, I'd sure appreciate it.

0:14:42.6 WN: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So as I've mentioned numerous times, which anyone who knows a Minnesotan gets annoyed with this, we always talk about our home. So I'm from Rochester, Minnesota, which is in south eastern Minnesota, many people know it because of the Mayo clinic. But I was one of the few kids at school whose parents didn't work at the Mayo clinic, both my parents were and are teachers, they're educators. My dad taught at the local public school, and my mom taught at a local Catholic school... St. Francis of Assisi and my dad taught at Pinewood. And I think that's super important in so many ways, but in a life in a vocation really rooted in education, I think there's no coincidence that my parents are both educators.

0:15:24.9 WN: My dad just retired last year and my mom is still teaching, so that is a huge part of my path and call. And I went to Catholic school all along. Went to St. Francis Middle High School, and then I went to college at St. John's University of Minnesota. So I'm a Johnny, as people say. Our rivals are Saint Olaf's, the Oles; Saint Thomas, the Tommies; Gustavus the Gusties. So lots of creativity in the Division 3 MIAC conference. And then, of course, Saint Ben's which is connected with Saint John's, Saint Ben's would be the Bennies, as you can guess.

0:15:58.5 AS: Oh my gosh.

0:16:00.5 WN: Hamline? They're not called the Hammies, so that's good. Long story short, I'm a Johnny, and super formative experience, Benedictine, small local arts school. I just came to really just love that community so much and learned so much from being there, and really, my experiences there felt a growing call to service and social justice, which I definitely kind of, I think was inspired in my early years at a school like St. Francis. What better model of social justice with parents as educators and in high school as well. My best buddies, their mom was the campus ministry director, and so she invited us often into service opportunities. So just continually feeling service and the connection to education.

0:16:49.8 WN: While at St. John's, I learned more about this program called ACE, the Alliance for Catholic Education. I was really drawn to the spiritual component, the service component, the teaching component, the living in community space, and it was called the ACE service for teaching at that point. And so I had some really formative experiences at local schools and service and prison ministry and going to a Native American reservation, the White Earth Nation, and all of those experiences were really kind of calling me to something deeper, and I felt like ACE was that call. And I had studied political science and history, super jazzed to teach high school social studies, I applied and I was so thrilled and humbled to get in. And then I got a call from Tulsa, Oklahoma, a couple of days later, and she said, "Hey, you know that essay where you talked about getting lost in the Boundary Waters Canoe Trip, and how you said how kind of the experiences that are far different than you expect... That's exactly the right ones?" I said, "Yes, I do remember that." She said, "Good, because I know you wanted to teach high school social studies, but you're gonna be our third grade teacher next year."

0:17:49.3 WN: So I said, "Oh, great."

0:17:50.5 AS: Oh no! 

0:17:51.6 WN: I can... I was in third grade once. Great, yeah. This will be awesome! 

0:17:54.7 AS: I think I remember third grade.

0:17:57.2 WN: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Mrs. A was an amazing teacher. So, elated to say yes to that, and then I went on to teach through ACE at Saint Catharine School in Tulsa. Truly one of my favorite places. Taught third grade, immensely challenging. I struggled and failed like I'd never before, but also was met with amazing grace from the families and my colleagues there, and I ended up staying a third year. So I was three years in Tulsa.

0:18:23.0 AS: Wonderful.

0:18:23.7 WN: And then have been back here working at ACE and the Institute for Educational Initiatives for about seven years in a few different roles, but for the last number of years working with the American Indian Catholic Schools network, which I think so much of that path is deeply connected to this current work and work that I just love so much. When the original position opened up, I emailed my family and I shared the position description. I said, "I think this is my dream job." And it really has been since day one. And thanks to some great mentorship and just amazing schools and educators and teachers, leaders, students who have given me the immense privilege just to witness their heroic work.

0:19:04.7 AS: We are blessed to have you, and they are blessed to have you as the director of that network. And maybe we can start with the network a little bit. Tell us about the schools, maybe the nations that are represented.

0:19:16.2 WN: Yeah, yeah.

0:19:16.8 AS: Thank you.

0:19:17.7 WN: Yeah, so I'll try to do this concisely. And that is something I, that is an area for growth in all ways. And my wife is not here to help me with that as she often is in social studies. So I will do my best here. But maybe just a quick history. So all things considered, this is a pretty new idea and a new experiment and a new community. There were five Native American Catholic schools. And a Native American Catholic school, we consider as a Catholic school in Indian country on reservations around the border of a reservation or a sovereign indigenous nation more appropriately that serves predominantly Native American students. There are probably 23 of these schools left in the country. There were many more, at one point, many of them were boarding schools and I'm sure we'll talk about more kind of the more recent awareness of the horrors and abusive culture of these boarding schools that were run both by the government and the church. And many of those have closed. And so there were far more Native American Catholic schools than there are today.

0:20:20.2 WN: The ones that have remained open in many cases are the ones who have modeled culture responsive pedagogy, who have teachers and leaders representing the community they're from, where the indigenous spirituality and tradition and language is celebrated. So all of those pieces make up a distinctly indigenous and distinctly Catholic school. So we're really proud that these are the schools that have been able to persist, and it's no coincidence that they are the ones who have persisted because they're deeply rooted in their local community and celebrate that local community. So there are probably 23 of these schools, five of them were funded by the Sieben or now The Better Way Foundation, independently. And what the schools were sharing with that foundation was there was a great hunger and need for sure for resources, and these schools are deeply under-resourced, but more than that, they needed relationships and solidarity and sharing best practices.

0:21:13.9 WN: And so what happened is they kind of flipped things around. Instead of funding individual projects at schools, they funded the opportunity for the schools to collaborate. And that's where the network was formed. That more than anything, the isolation and challenges of these schools could best be addressed by a sense of community and working together. And so the network was formed with five schools originally, and it was housed at Creighton, at the University of Creighton in 2013. And a few years later, in 2017 or 2016, I guess Brian Collier, along with the leadership at the Institute for Educational Initiatives and ACE, as well as Karen Rauenhorst, who's deeply involved and a Leader in The Better Way Foundation, they all came together and thought ACE. And in the mission of strengthening, sustaining and transforming under-resourced Catholic schools, that'd be a wonderful fit.

0:22:00.3 WN: And so in 2017, officially the network moved to Notre Dame. And from my experience, I started working in 2018 officially and formally and fully with the network. It is, it's just the deepest and most beautiful mission fit. One of our key priorities in this network is to grow sustainably, incrementally, thoughtfully. And the school, the principals and the teachers from our other schools are really inspired and energized by that. And I love that, that there's such a spirit of inclusion because the more schools that are in the network, which means the more students, the more teachers, the more principals who can share their experiences and walk together in solidarity. And so from the very beginning, the member schools have all been so motivated to welcome new schools in. Which is really awesome because you could see there could be more of an exclusive kind of, "This is working well. Let's keep the resources concentrated," but they wanna spread it out. And I think it's an amazing model of what the church can be and what education can be.

0:22:58.1 AS: I know it's even growing. Congratulations, you've just added an eighth school.

0:23:02.0 WN: Yes.

0:23:02.1 AS: St. Anthony's.

0:23:02.3 WN: Exactly. Yep. St. Anthony Indian Mission School in Zuni, New Mexico, just a really special school down in the Diocese of Gallup serves the Zuni Pueblo and the Zuni community. And so we're very excited. Sister Marsha Moon is just a wonderful woman and a Saint Lee principal and Sister Kathleen Carr and I, who is the ACE director of Strategic partnerships who AICSN sits under. We had a wonderful visit there, and we were just, everyone was on the same page that when we're able to add a school we hope it's St. Anthony and gratefully it has all worked out. And then they will be our eighth school and next month when we have our full fall leadership summit where all our school leaders meet together, it'll actually be held in New Mexico and we'll officially welcome St. Anthony to our community.

0:23:48.3 AS: Oh, wow. What a joyous location that's gonna be.

0:23:50.6 WN: Yeah, it will, it will.

0:23:50.7 AS: Oh, and we look forward to highlighting that some more too.

0:23:54.0 WN: Yeah, absolutely.

0:23:54.9 AS: When that comes along. It's so good.

0:23:55.9 WN: Do you want me to quickly list them? Would that be...

0:23:57.9 AS: Yes, please. Please.

0:23:58.9 WN: Great. So we serve, I'll go east to west. So St. Mary's mission serves the Red Lake Nation, of which is the Ojibwe indigenous community that is in Red Lake, Minnesota. St. Augustine, which serves the Winnebago and Omaha nations, and that is in Winnebago, Nebraska. Then we serve two schools in South Dakota, St. Joseph Indian School, which is in Chamberlain, South Dakota. They serve primarily Lakota students. And then Red Cloud Indian School, which is in Pine Ridge, South Dakota. You, Audrey have had the privilege of being there.

0:24:31.3 AS: Absolutely.

0:24:32.1 WN: They're on Pine Ridge and they serve the Lakota, the Pine Ridge Lakota community. Then we have De La Salle Blackfeet, which is in Browning, Montana, and they serve the Blackfeet Nation. Then kind of to the southwest, we have St. Joseph Mission School is in San Fidel, New Mexico. They serve the Acoma and Laguna Pueblos. Then there's St. Anthony Indian Mission School that serves the Zuni Pueblo, and then St. Charles Apache Mission School, they serve the San Carlos Apache Nation, and that is in San Carlos, Arizona. So that is our full community as of now of eight schools and we're looking forward to continuing to grow and you, like we said, incrementally and thoughtfully, but that's the native communities we serve and the school communities we serve.

0:25:18.7 AS: Thank you so much. It's important to hear who they are. And I like learning about that. Can you talk a little bit about the origins of what made this possible at the beginning? 

0:25:26.6 WN: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Five schools had relationships with the Sieben Foundation, which is part of the JHR umbrella of foundations. And they had that hunger for something more. And it was from the leadership and the Round Horse family of the Sieben Foundation, which is now the Better Way Foundation that they would fund this network, that they would fund the opportunities to bring these schools together and for staff to work full time toward this network. And so as the network moved to Notre Dame, the Better Way Foundation played an instrumental role, and they continue to do today in making this possible that funding is available to bring these schools together through, obviously, as I shared earlier, quite a geographical distance, right? Together in person for a number of opportunities during the school year, in the summer, as well as a number of virtual opportunities as well as the programs we work through as, and being able to build team capacity for people to implement those programs.

0:26:29.2 WN: And as that has grown, that grant that we operate is at the heart and soul of what we do, and we work really closely with The Better Way Foundation with members of the Roundhouse family with board members, and with their team in a very collaborative way, which I think is unique to our partnership. And it really is a deeply mutually beneficial three-way partnership between the Foundation, ACE in Notre Dame, and then the schools, which is really beautiful. And as we've been able to do that and have some proof points of success, we've been able to slowly but surely spread our word and share our stories and been able to raise some more funds. And the Pasquinelli family, a long time Notre Dame an ACE family, who's just are really deeply committed to Catholic schools. They receive the Notre Dame Prize of Catholic ed from from ACE in Notre Dame as well. They recently very deeply generously have helped support our work and that has played a huge role in first deepening our impact as well as helping to expand. So their support has helped us to invite more schools like St. Anthony in so we can be more inclusive and grow, and our community can be enlivened by more educators and more students from all over the country.

0:27:41.8 AS: Great. Thank you so much. That helps really ground things. So I really appreciate that.

0:27:45.1 WN: And part of that, and with deep support from Better Way and the Pasquinellis as well, we've all agreed we need to continue to increase our capacity to have more team members to take on more schools. So we're always looking for more. So I'll give you my cell phone now for any benefactors listening. No, I'm just kidding.

0:28:02.2 AS: See the show notes afterwards? Subscribe to...

0:28:05.5 WN: Yeah. My cell phone email, Zoom links, house address. [laughter]

0:28:14.1 AS: W Newkirk [laughter] I think that's great though. I think part of what we wanna do is help get the word out because you do, you're doing such great work.

0:28:19.9 WN: We've just been met with them, just amazing support and partnerships from those and many others, you know and the beautiful thing I think about a AICSN being housed at Notre Dame is it's not about ACE in Notre Dame sharing our story, it's about sharing the story of these schools and facilitating and empowering in a way where the schools are sharing their stories. 'Cause that's where the courageous heroic work is being done. When you hear those moments, it is deeply moving. It is really deeply moving.

0:28:50.9 AS: Yes, you are such a genuine, wonderful person who cares deeply. One of the, I know you're not gonna love all these compliments, but one of the reasons I think some of that you guys have been so successful is because of that, because the folks you're working with trust you and they know that you're coming from that authentic space of care. So I appreciate that. I've had the distinct pleasure to be able to work with you and the network. I wanna be able to talk about the partnership with Holy Cross a bit too. So any time I get to interface, it's just been so lovely.

0:29:20.9 WN: Thank you. And that's been just such a special part of this partnership is how many units and teams within the Institute for Educational Initiatives and the Alliance for Catholic Education who have been able to interact around leadership program, the Center for STEM Education, the communications team, just across the board, the units here. Just talk about how life giving that partnership has been and our AICSN folks just talk about the hospitality and the graciousness of the ACE and II team. So that's just been I think a gift for everyone involved. It just kind of helps deepen, hopefully our beautiful vision of what Catholic education can mean.

0:29:55.5 AS: Absolutely. I think a lot of the work that you do is trying to bring about truth and healing. And I think in order to try to do that, it's important to talk about some history, some complex and challenging history boarding schools. Can you walk us through a little bit of that sort of where you see healing taking place? 

0:30:17.4 WN: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

0:30:18.4 AS: Or the potential for that.

0:30:19.7 WN: Totally. And you're exactly right. You know, truth and healing is at the heart and the pillar of our work when we've come together for strategic planning and with all of our school leaders and thought and dreamed about the vision of AICSN and it really comes down to impactful talent formation, providing services to the schools, and truth and healing and truth and healing. As we think about the intersection of Catholic identity and indigenous culture. And so and you're right, it it's very complex and it's very heavy and there's a dark, dark history of the church in indigenous Catholic schools. You know, Pope Francis's visit to Canada this year was, is such an important step, such an important step and many different views on how beneficial it was. But more than anything it honored the deep, dark tragedy that those schools brought about through abuse and that continue to impact native families, survivors, as well as their descendants today through intergenerational trauma.

0:31:27.4 WN: So it is so deeply woven into these communities, both within our schools and within the local, indigenous community in context. It for me was just such a moment of awareness of the trauma that was inflicted in this abusive system and how it continues today and how invisible it is to so many of us who are non-indigenous and even those of us involved in Catholic education, even those involved in indigenous Catholic education and how close it hits home for indigenous Catholic educators and families, whether they are part of the school or not. So if our work aligns with the mission, we chatted briefly about and our vision, we need to be talking about Truth and Healing and that these schools need to be vessels of transformational education where healing occurs.

0:32:16.5 WN: Because if we're not combating the intergenerational trauma, then in some way or another that continues on. And so I really believe deeply and so many indigenous educators have helped me learn about this is that our opportunity is now to change the story and the narrative and have a process that schools and local families initiate in their own local context. It'll be different from school to school that facilitates a process of truth and healing, of acknowledging the hardships of the past, of working with the church and other local leaders and national leaders to work on apologies, to work on more deeply indigenizing how the school operates in its Catholic identity, in naming the families and the students who were victims of this abuse who might have died of this abuse who were never properly returned to their families. It is heavy and dark, but if we're not rolling up our sleeves to embrace that, these schools aren't gonna be able to have the transformative effect that they're starting today.

0:33:24.0 WN: And that is rooted in and driven by the families and the teachers at those schools. And so, like I said it's a beautiful opportunity and the beauty of it has to do with embracing the pain of the past. And every school will look different. Like I said, every school has a different history of whether it's a boarding school or not or what the church looked like. But there is still now the colonial nature of the government and the church's involvement in these communities that there is a place and a space for this to be looked at in each community. One of our schools, Red Cloud, which we've talked about a little bit... Maka Black Elk, who's an amazing friend and leader within AICSN. He's done the Remick Leadership Program at ACE. His job is the Executive Director of Truth and Healing at Red Cloud right now.

0:34:09.1 WN: And he's the perfect person to do it as a Lakota Catholic man and an inspiring person, but not all of our schools are in a place with the resources or even kind of a strategy to bring this about. So it's gonna look different everywhere, but our network deeply prioritizes that we can come together and talk about it. And we've been able to do that through Summer Truth and Healing sessions where people come and learn about it. Even in our summer institute that brought people to campus for professional development in person this summer, that was an important topic. So we wanna think about it that every classroom in our schools is a space for truth and healing. It's really infused in every aspect of these schools. And you know just for me personally as a non-indigenous person, it's so important for me to acknowledge that.

0:34:57.6 WN: But also the darkness of this is really heavy and I can't imagine what it is like to carry as survivors or descendants of the boarding schools. Because the more and more I work in this, there are so many days where my heart is broken and I have way more questions than answers and the deep sadness and tragedy and trauma of it as an outsider and as someone who's part of the settler colonial community. Right. You know I wrestle with that a lot and when I see what these schools are doing and when I see how these schools are talking about in leading and Truth and Healing, there's great hope in that. And the more we can witness and follow and stand as a co-conspirator, as I like to say in that work that they're really directing and leading it, there's hope for an amazing, amazing future.

0:35:50.9 AS: I love that idea that there is hope and that with you, us and others working with them, that they believe that there is hope and that they're willing to work with us and help us understand and learn and acknowledge and find ways to heal. I think that is very hope. Now you gotta save that toward the end, 'cause that's where we put the hope part.

0:36:11.3 WN: Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. And one thing that's so important that Maka has talked about a lot too, that I think is really important is that this work of truth and healing should be led and directed by indigenous educators and families, but we can't put the burden of that strictly on those people because that's, in some ways saying others or someone in my role doesn't have a role to play and we do [laughter] but it's to support that we're not leading it or dictating it or directing it. But that's not to say we're not gonna be part of it because we have a role and responsibilities to stand with and walk with these schools and these families in this process.

0:36:51.0 AS: Absolutely. Very well said by Maka and you. Let's talk about that. What do you or what in your circles... What do you think is the best way to define our role and our responsibility? What can we do as best next steps you think? 

0:37:06.0 WN: Yeah. So I think about this in particular within my role at AICSN and the team at ACE. But even beyond that I think more than anything, what is so crucial is that these stories are witnessed and heard, shared and celebrated. You know, the indigenous experiences is quite invisible to so many within our country. And that's related to the horrific history of our government and the church with a deeply colonial approach to the first people of this place. So many Americans don't think of indigenous communities as present and evolving and thriving and struggling today. I think there's a stat that 90% of American students don't learn anything about the indigenous experience in social studies classes beyond 1900. There are many reasons for that. You know like I said, kind of the approach of the government and the church in the past, as well as the rural nature of indigenous communities generally. So I think more than anything it's to listen. And I think it's one of my favorite words, is to listen. Saint Benedict talks about it at the beginning of this well listen with the ear of your heart.

0:38:25.3 WN: And I think those of us who are non-indigenous, whether we're working in this field or not. It's important that we listen to the stories and in listening, we learn and we're educated. And we learn about the dark history and we learn about all these truths that we have been blind to. That were not part of the narratives we've grown up with. But we also learn about the heroic and courageous work that's happening at the schools today. And I think the more that happens... We've talked about these moving stories and these inspiring people just simply witnessing what they do has an impact directly and indirectly. And I think about at our schools, there are a number of survivors of boarding schools who are teachers or leaders at these schools. And I've met a number of them. And I'm working on my doctorate at Loyola Marymount doctoral program for educational leadership through social justice. And my dissertation's gonna be about the stories of the survivors of boarding schools who have then chosen to teach in Catholic schools.

0:39:29.0 WN: If you wanna talk about truth and healing, talk about the life of these people and their commitment to their children and their communities that they have given their lives to teach within a Catholic school and a system that took them away from their families and may have impacted their indigenous... I don't wanna speak for anyone at this point, but impacted their life, and their community, and their indigenous identity in so many different ways. And so the fact that these people, Lorraine Russell is the principal of St. Charles Apache Mission School and went to a boarding school and came back to St. Carlos. She's taught there or led there for over 40 years. And like, What an inspiring person for many of us to learn from. And I think when we listen to those voices and ask them, those folks can give us a great sense of what it means to really walk with them and support them in the way that is deeply respectful. And hopefully in a way that helps all of us decolonize our lens and just respect a school and its indigenous culture. And its indigenous sovereignty in a way where they can truly flourish in the way they dream they could and aim to be.

0:40:38.0 AS: Listen with the ear of your heart. We've talked about this. I do think everybody has a very critical story to tell or to share. Sometimes I feel like that's... It's good for me to hear that that's a good starting point. 'Cause I feel like, well that's not enough. What can I do? And I think that it's important to know that that is something that's welcomed is to be open and to listen. And to be open to that healing and see where we can partner with that.

0:41:04.7 WN: Yeah. I love that. I love that.

0:41:06.7 AS: Good, good. Given a lot of the... For lack of a better word, the complexities of the history and moving... Trying to move forward together and in healing. Can you help us understand a little bit of the indigenous culture intersecting with the Catholic identity in these schools? That'd be the one. Thanks.

0:41:25.7 WN: Yeah. And thinking about that intersection of indigenous culture and tradition and Catholic identity. That's the unique nature of our schools. And that's why in 2013, the schools were calling for community because it's such a different type of school than anywhere else on the reservation. Far different than a public school where most indigenous students go or a Bureau of Indian Education School. And also far different than most other schools in the... Pretty much every other school in the diocese. For me, this is something that when we look at. This is where I feel you can see glimmers of truth and healing in that these schools are celebratory and deeply indigenous while doing that in a way that is infused into a Catholic school. That there's still a Catholic school. And like so many pieces, and I mentioned this before, every school looks different, but what we find is all of our schools are teaching their indigenous language in one way or another.

0:42:32.9 WN: In some cases it's through an immersion classroom. In some cases, it's an elder coming in and teaching. In certain places it's seen the our father written in the Blackfeet language, for example. So there are these beautiful signs of the indigenous culture in these schools. So language is one, traditional spirituality in different ways of the teachings, the wisdom. I've also seen it in ways where it's connected to the Catholic church where the church at the school has sage burning as kind of a sense of cleaning or smudging as they would call. So this collection and celebration of creation and spirituality in a new way which was so different than of course how the Catholic church did this in the past. And then all sorts of other traditional ways. Some of our schools, they do an elk hunt and that is to be part of their education, the student's education. I think it's so so important and beautiful and...

0:43:34.9 AS: Great. Yes.

0:43:35.5 WN: We see that too in the schools and how they are distinctly Catholic. In one of our schools you look at the side of the wall and there is a mural of Apache Jesus they call it. Where Jesus is an Apache man with Apache children. And so that is a gospel [laughter] oriented mural, but it's culturally representative of the community that we're in. I've seen beautiful crucifixes with the medicine wheel behind it. Sweet Grass next to a Statue of Mary and maybe a saint Kateri an indigenous Catholic saint portrayed in murals. We see it in language, we see it in art, we see it in how the schools are educating beyond a common standard. And it's the most beautiful and truly unique aspect of these schools. And what I think is that that's the Catholic school at its best, without a doubt, a Catholic education, Catholic social teaching, all of those pieces. And it is all the better because it is in a distinctly indigenous school. And the fact that every school looks so different in how they bring that about. I also think that a really important sign too is that many of our schools don't have a large population of Catholic students. And obviously forced conversion was a piece, a dark piece of the boarding schools. And so the families in the community, they might not be Catholic, but they believe that this is a good school for their students to learn to be a good person and a learner. I think that is a really promising sign.

0:45:08.8 AS: Yeah, that's a very interesting observation. What are some of the challenges and opportunities, maybe of these modern-day students to tie back to that indigenous culture too? 

0:45:19.1 WN: Yeah. Yeah. Great question. So one of the biggest challenges is that sometimes elders or others in the community, family members will have a distrust of the Catholic school because of their own experience. So that makes sense. So we need to navigate that and think about how the students who are in our schools currently today how is their experience so different. And I think the opportunity is these students can learn in a deeply indigenous manner within a Catholic school in the 21st century. And that means that the older students are on TikTok [laughter] And it means that the younger students might be able to watch, PAW Patrol or something at home. And that's to say... That's not to say there's anything wrong with that. And they do that and they want to do that and that's great. And they're reading books that you'd see at a scholastic book fair. And that's wonderful and important. And in addition to that, they're allowed to wear their indigenous regalia to school in place of their uniform on any day and they are speaking to an elder in the language that maybe their grandmother grew up speaking, this infusion of Catholic education and indigenous education.

0:46:38.7 WN: It's so important that these students feel that they are deeply indigenous in the era we're in today. And I think our schools do a good job of that with cutting-edge educational curricula and resources. That also come together with ancient wisdom from their community and will students be interested in that? I think just like anywhere, it's different from case to case. But the fact that it's not aside of what they're doing. It's at the heart of what they're doing is really important. And what I think too is that the schools we work with do this in a way that really does make the students who come to the school feel part of the community. And I have just a brief story for you. Okay. We had our eighth graders, we call it the eighth-grade pilgrimage where we invite all of our schools to come to kind of explore Notre Dame and learn more about the college experience as they head into high school. And obviously, COVID has impacted that for a number of years, but last year one school was able to come and it's just... The best days for AICSN are when we're all together at a school or when our schools are all here. And I was walking with a young guy, I think we were leaving the ice skating rink, we were going to the dining hall.

0:47:53.4 WN: And I asked him if he had been at De La Salle BlackFeet for a long time. And he said no he just came last year. And that he had gone to another school in the area. And I said, why did you switch schools? You know I'm interested in this. Why are students and families choosing AICSN schools over others? And he said, Well I got in with a rough crowd at my old middle school and got in a lot of fights and it sounded like it was a mutual decision it was not the place [laughter] for him to be. And I said I'm sorry to hear that and I said, I hope things are going better at De La Salle BlackFeet. And he said, Oh, oh my gosh. Yes. And he said and he pointed to his buddies walking around and he said, These are my brothers. And it was one of the most powerful moments in my experience because what it showed was that this school in all that it does in the job of educators. Father Lu Delfa said this in a homily when I was in AICSN and I think about it often. The job is impossible and we are inadequate. The task that these schools have is so, so significant. But what they're doing, how they're able to provide this opportunity in an educational environment that is Catholic, that is indigenous. They're doing something right. Because of this student...

0:49:07.3 AS: Absolutely.

0:49:08.2 WN: Was in such a space and intention that physical conflict was coming about and how he was able to express himself and make sense of the space he was in that shortly after, he's now at a school where he doesn't feel okay. He feels like he's part of a family. Like these are his brothers. And you can't really fully measure something like that other than through personal witness. But that shows for me all of these pieces about modern-day education, about the church, about the local community, that when we approach it really authentically and openly, it can be a community that students feel loved. And that's a really important step.

0:49:49.1 AS: That is such a beautiful story. Thank you so much for sharing that.

0:49:52.4 WN: Absolutely.

0:49:52.9 AS: Oh my gosh. The wisdom of [laughter] a young guy like that too.

0:49:55.6 WN: Absolutely. Absolutely.

0:49:57.5 AS: Yeah. Wonderful. And I'm gonna have to get this guy's name and then talk to him.

0:50:00.5 WN: Yeah, yeah exactly.

0:50:01.3 AS: 'Cause it sounds like I wanna hear more about that as such a positive element.

0:50:06.4 WN: I think he'd be very open to return to South Dining Hall. I'll tell you that. They're big fans. So if you get him in an interview there, that'll happen.

0:50:13.2 AS: I think I can pull a few strings, [laughter] Oh, wonderful. Oh my gosh. Well, I would love after that to go straight into the hope section, which closes us out. But I have one more question first about teacher retention and shortage that is happening. And if we can tie that into the wonderful work that is happening in conjunction with Holy Cross College here.

0:50:32.7 WN: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think this is very much related to the hope piece.

0:50:35.8 AS: Great.

0:50:36.4 WN: For me right? 

0:50:37.3 AS: Great.

0:50:37.4 WN: So no doubt our schools are facing a teacher shortage of the most urgent and serious degree. We're seeing that in America across the board, and our schools have always struggled with this. And it makes sense because our schools are rural and oftentimes the other educational opportunities on a reservation might pay more. So it's hard to necessarily find local folks who are gonna choose this school over another. Our schools, especially in the last year, have all come together and talked about this, and they are all facing it. And some of our schools have a high native faculty percentage but some have low, and everyone's seeing it in different ways. Definitely, the more schools with native local teachers, they don't face this to such a severe degree. So we're talking about it and we're thinking about it a lot, and just trying to come up with creative solutions and share them with each other. And this Holy Cross Fellows program, which is an awesome partnership with Holy Cross College across the street from Notre Dame...

0:51:32.7 AS: Absolutely.

0:51:33.2 WN: Has been around for a few years. And a number of our teachers, which is an interesting aspect... A number of our teachers at AICSN schools. They don't have a certification and/or bachelor's degree in education, which is new to some people, but that's just the nature. Our schools have found good people to teach there without the credentials, the traditional credentials. And so we've worked together with Holy Cross to provide an opportunity where our cohorts of AICSN teachers can come and earned their BA degree and or teaching certification through the Holy Cross. And it has been one of the most graceful pieces. Like we talked about at the heart of our work, is bringing schools together to learn and share in our unique ministry, and this has done it. While also addressing the teacher shortage, that these people we've identified, many are native, not all. But those who aren't have married into the community or have committed themselves to stay in the community for a long time. They've come together in person for two and a half weeks and Audrey, you've been able to meet these people.

0:52:30.6 WN: They take classes, it's intense, and then they take online classes during the year. And the most special bond has been formed, teachers from Montana, South Dakota, Arizona, all over. Some of them indigenous, some of them not, but all sharing in the deepest commitment to their students and wanting these credentials to stay there. And I think for me, this is the sign of hope. One of the greatest signs of hope we have is that in an age where it is so hard to find a teacher anywhere, that we have these men and women who are working so hard full-time as educators in what I think is the hardest job possible, while also spending time away from their family, spending time online during the year to earn their credentials. So we've worked really hard to provide essentially full scholarships to these teachers because they are paying far more than we could ever do through their commitment and blood, sweat, and probably a few tears for their students.

[laughter]

0:53:22.4 WN: And I think, one moment for me captures this best. Our first person to complete the program happened this past summer. And that was... It's a dream long in the making. This idea came about in 2017 or '18, and the first students came in the summer of 2019. But this past summer, Kelly Stever finished, and when her certification arrived in the mail, the Holy Cross faculty... Someone from the Holy Cross faculty and myself, we received a text message with a picture of it, and she said, "My dream is now a reality." And I just thought in an age where people are walking away from classrooms and education. They're running out the door, right? [laughter] That someone that we have the great privilege to work with and witness is saying, "This is my dream to be able to do this." And now, know she can do it long-term for her students. How can you not be filled with hope? And how can you not just think that in this age of such urgent need for transformative education for our students in these indigenous Catholic schools, that they're spending their days with someone who isn't saying, "This is a job," or "What a drag it is," or "I gotta go again tomorrow." She's saying, "It's my dream and a privilege to be there." I am moved by that and just think what an amazing privilege we have to be able to learn from and witness saintly folks like Kelly who share that commitment and love.

0:54:51.0 AS: Well, I'm definitely moved too. [laughter] I might have had one of those tears you were mentioning. That is so beautiful, and an absolute congratulations to her and to all of you who have worked so hard to help her along that path. And I have had that great privilege to walk with you guys for a few steps. And I'm so heartened to hear that you feel like that's a critical piece to continue to listen and to help in the healing. I would ask you for your hopeful piece, but I think you've infused this whole conversation with so much hope. As difficult as it is, I can see that that is just a true piece that fills your heart. So thank you so much, Will.

0:55:24.4 WN: Thank you. It is such a joy. If I'm not interacting directly with AICSN folks. To be able to talk about them is the greatest dream. And like you said, these schools and these students, these families, these teachers, they embody hope. So it is the greatest gift to be able to witness, no doubt.

0:55:44.9 AS: Well, thank you so much. Thank you so much for being here and for sharing these stories with us, and we look forward to have continued conversations with you.

0:55:51.5 WN: Thank you, Audrey. So so great to be with you. I will be thinking about our schools and our students a lot, just from this conversation, as well as the history of Jack-o'-lanterns, and whether to do Starburst or Skittles, or Reese's as the holiday approaches.

0:56:06.5 AS: Maybe a bowl of each and then you can do your own study.

0:56:08.2 WN: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. We don't use ore, we use both hands. Exactly.

[laughter]

0:56:13.3 WN: We say, "Yes."

0:56:13.4 AS: Thank you, Will. [laughter] Yes, yes, and absolutely. Thanks so much, Will. I will talk to you soon.

0:56:19.0 WN: Thanks, Audrey, I really appreciate it.

0:56:21.3 S3: And thank you all for joining us for Think. Pair. Share. If you enjoyed this episode, head on over to Apple podcasts to subscribe, rate, and leave a review. It's very much appreciated. Check out our website at iei.nd.edu/media for this and other goodies. Thanks for listening, and for now off we go.