Dr. Andrea Christensen: Education, Motivated.

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0:00:09.1 Audrey Scott: Welcome to this Modern Education podcast that explores learning from the everyday exchange of thoughts and ideas to the theories and practices behind entire systems. Think education is cool? So do we, so we pair two conversations, learn about our guests, then learn from our guests, share your takeaways and come back for more. You're listening to Think.Pair.Share with me, Audrey Scott.

0:00:40.3 AS: Dr. Andrea Christensen is the Director of Education, Schooling and Society, and a Fellow within the Institute for Educational Initiatives at the University of Notre Dame. She's a former school teacher who received her PhD in the Department of Psychology, and her research and teaching concerns effective teacher instruction and classroom practices that support student motivation to learn. Andrea has a profound influence on undergraduate students through her ability to create environments that stimulate significant student learning and intellectual engagement, and I am so happy to have her joining us here today. Hi, Andrea, welcome.

0:01:13.2 Andrea Christensen: Thank you for having me. How are you? 

0:01:16.8 AS: I'm well, how about yourself? 

0:01:19.0 AC: I'm doing very well. Doing very well.

0:01:20.6 AS: Good, good, good. We're full swing into the first semester here again, already, sort of blinked and the summer went by.

0:01:27.5 AC: You're right, there is not a lot of downtime. And the beginning of a semester is always so busy, but I enjoy it so much. I get to come back in and be with the students and that's the best part of what I do. One of my colleagues told me that she teaches for free, they pay her to grade, and I think that's exactly how I feel that I could be in the classroom all day, and I love it so much. So it's exciting for me to get back into the semester.

0:01:56.1 AS: Oh, my gosh. That's a great, great way to look at it. But yeah, and we'll talk about some of the passion, actually, because I do always want to hear the world could be your oyster and you choose to do this, and...

0:02:07.0 AC: I am not a person who likes to be the center of attention. That sounds odd coming from a person who for a living stands in front of a room of people and talks to them, but I am a massive introvert, so this is really uncomfortable for me.

0:02:23.3 AS: Well, we certainly appreciate you going outside your comfort zone for us, because you have long been one of the people that we want to talk to, and we're so excited that you just keep rising, and congratulations on your relatively new Director of Education, Schooling and Society, so congratulations for that, for sure.

0:02:40.6 AC: Thank you, I appreciate that. Yes, that's very close to my heart, so I'm happy to be there.

0:02:46.2 AS: I certainly want to hear more about that. But first, as you may be aware from some of the other podcasts, we're gonna do our little fun section at the beginning, and starting last... Well, the first year was sort of a hodge podge of things, but then we started doing a theme, and then last month we started with a grab bag, so don't be too nervous. I think it'll be okay. Matt Kloser was kind enough to kick off that new little segment with us last month, but this month, actually, I was kind of looking around and I saw a calendar of days to celebrate in September, and so I was... Some were kind of nice and serious, and then some were really kind of goofy and fun, so I would put them into a bag and we'll just pick out a couple and see what that brings us. Sound okay? 

0:03:35.6 AC: Sounds great.

0:03:36.9 AS: Okay, great. So jaunty grab bag music.

0:03:42.2 AC: I'm so curious.

0:03:43.9 AS: Good, so am I. Let's see what we have here. First one. Ooh, September 6th, National Coffee Ice Cream Day. Who knew you needed a whole day for that, but that sounds delicious to me.

0:03:57.8 AC: It does.

0:03:57.8 AS: Do you like coffee? 

0:04:00.4 AC: I love coffee, I love coffee ice cream. I'm allergic to eggs, and many ice creams have eggs, so I have to be careful about which ice cream I eat, but coffee ice cream is definitely one of my favorite flavors.

0:04:14.4 AS: Oh, good, I love that too, and I have a good friend who... That's possibly her favorite thing, and also, as it turns out, 'cause I just... I know this for other references, but if ice cream is not your thing or if you are allergic to eggs, September gives you another chance, on September 29th it's just regular old National Coffee Day.

0:04:34.2 AC: Wonderful. Well, I celebrate that every day.

0:04:36.3 AS: Me too, several times, actually. We'll have to let FJ and Bridget know and maybe they can record a special cup of joe offering on that day.

0:04:45.4 AC: That'd be perfect.

0:04:47.1 AS: Okay, sounds good. Alright, back to the grab bag. This is September 19th, it's... This is big time. It's International Talk like a Pirate Day.

0:05:01.4 AC: It is? My goodness, I... What in the world? 

0:05:06.5 AS: Just throw a lot of "arrghs" in there.

0:05:08.3 AC: Arrgh. Yes. That is... Why the world is that a day? 

0:05:15.1 AS: I don't know, I wonder who gets to decide these kind of things, right? Okay, let's see. September 14th, National Eat a Hoagie Day. Actually, it's the same kind of sandwich, right, but different names. Did you guys grow up calling it something specific, a hoagie, a grinder, a submarine, po'boy? 

0:05:36.4 AC: Probably a submarine. I mean, I'm from Southern California. I guess, as we all do when we're growing up, we don't think we have special names for things, we think those are just the names.

0:05:48.6 AS: Right, exactly.

0:05:50.9 AC: But yeah, I think we called it a sub sandwich.

0:05:52.0 AS: I think so too. I'm from here, so I think we call them subs, but maybe that was because of Subways, I don't know. I don't think I did a lot of that when I was a little, maybe they were just plain old sandwiches.

0:06:04.0 AC: Yeah, yeah, I don't think I ate a lot of subs growing up, maybe the peanut butter and jelly that I took to school lunch with me. That's probably about it.

0:06:14.4 AS: That was pretty much every day, I think. I think if we got strawberry jelly, it was fancy, 'cause normally it was just grape.

0:06:22.1 AC: Yeah, a good day.

0:06:25.7 AS: Yeah, it was a good day. Let's see, what else do we have? Okay, today, September 13th is apparently National Kids Take Over the Kitchen Day.

0:06:37.2 AC: I like that. Yeah.

0:06:40.4 AS: Is this a good idea in your home or...

0:06:43.3 AC: My kids are adults, so it's a great idea. Yeah, but I like that. And in fact, I have two boys. They're nearly 25 and one just turned 28. They are pretty handy at cooking, they like to cook, and I think in our house growing up, we were really into food and cooking, and they were a part of it, and so they can do it now, they can cook on their own, and so that... I think that's great. I think having a National Kids in the Kitchen Day is a good start.

0:07:21.9 AS: It's a great start, and I love that you guys cook together and do you have a favorite dish that you cook or that they would cook? Something traditional? 

0:07:28.9 AC: Probably not a favorite dish, but I think one of our biggest traditions... My father's side of the family is Italian, and on Christmas Eve, every year, for my entire life and my kids' entire lives and my father's entire life, we've done the feast of the seven fishes on Christmas Eve, and we've had groups anywhere from 50 people that we serve, to have a small Christmas with five or six people, especially during Covid. But we've always done it no matter what.

0:08:05.1 AS: Even during Covid, you were able to do it? 

0:08:08.2 AC: In 2020, it was just me and the boys, just me and the boys with our feast. It was very relaxed and they looked like... I don't know, like mountain men, because they let their beards and their hair grow for the whole Covid, and so there was me with my hairy boys at the table having our fish.

0:08:29.5 AS: I've heard of it, but I've never actually participated. Can you tell me what that looks like? 

0:08:35.1 AC: It really started in the Italian-American community, and it was... I believe at first it was meant to be kind of simple foods, so that it could be celebrated by families with all sorts of resources, so it was kind of a low-cost meal. And now it's not so much 'cause fish is getting a little bit more expensive. And I think throughout the years, it's become more and more elaborate, but there are certain traditional fishes that are always included, smelt, which is not everyone's favorite, but fried...

0:09:13.9 AS: It's my dad's favorite.

0:09:16.1 AC: Really? 

0:09:16.8 AS: Dad's from Holland, and that was like a tradition for them, smelt. We were like, ugh.

0:09:18.6 AC: Yes, yes. But you know what, smelts are an acquired taste, I think.

0:09:23.0 AS: I think so too. I think as we got older, we certainly participated a little bit more.

0:09:28.2 AC: Absolutely. So we do fried smelt, and then baccalà, which is a salt-cured cod, which used to be very inexpensive, so you could feed a lot of people with it. And we make a pasta sauce with the cod, with the baccalà, and then you can kind of be creative, depending on how many courses you want to make, depending on the size of your crowd, but we always include some sort of smoked fish in the, kind of the appetizer at the beginning and, yeah, it's lovely, and it's really one of our favorite traditions, and it's all about food. In my family, everything's all about food.

0:10:09.0 AS: As I love that about big Italian families, especially. I definitely know a few of those. Well, that's great. And is there a traditional thing that...

0:10:16.1 AC: Well, so that is the feast of the seven fishes, and in my family, so my father's Italian, my mother is Mexican, and so on Christmas day, we have tamales.

0:10:24.9 AS: That sounds so delicious. Okay. Now, we shouldn't have done this. Next time I'm interviewing someone mid-afternoon after lunch.

0:10:31.7 AC: Right. It's all food so far, now we're getting hungry.

0:10:36.3 AS: Okay. Just a couple more and then we'll get back into some of that good stuff too.

0:10:39.2 AC: I'm so excited, because so far, it's just been a surprise.

0:10:44.8 AS: They are surprising, and there are kind of really fun ones, okay, and odd ones too, I guess like this one. September 24th, National Punctuation Day. Seems super random.

0:10:55.7 AC: How does one celebrate National Punctuation Day? 

0:10:58.3 AS: I don't know, do you have a favorite punctuation mark? 

0:11:01.6 AC: I have never thought about that.

0:11:03.3 AS: I kind of like the... Maybe it's square brackets. Is that considered a punctuation mark? 

0:11:09.0 AC: Sure, sure. Why not? 

0:11:13.1 AS: I like semi-colons.

0:11:13.2 AC: Semi-colons are nice. Yes, we took a long pause and then we're gonna start a new idea. That's right.

0:11:20.2 AS: I think that we should put one here, go have lunch together, come back.

0:11:23.5 AC: That's right.

0:11:25.7 AS: We have lots of good meals to eat. Okay, let's do one more, and we'll jump into things in one second. Alright, let's see what this one is. Okay, another International Day. This one maybe has a little bit more gravitas to it than, was it the pirates? 

0:11:43.3 AC: Yeah, Talk like a Pirate Day.

0:11:46.3 AS: Talk Like a Pirate Day. This is International Literacy Day, September 8. I guess we missed it this year, but we'll be aware of it for next year, unless you were already aware of it? 

0:11:54.5 AC: I was not. I was not. I was hoping that every day is literacy day, but I guess we have to have a special day for it.

0:12:02.6 AS: Good suggestion. I like that very much. And yeah, I guess it's meant to raise awareness for literacy problems, both locally and globally, so urges communities to work together to raise educational standards.

0:12:14.6 AC: Wonderful.

0:12:15.4 AS: I like that very much. And I guess since we said we would only do one more, so let's be women of our words, and then actually that leads us nicely into education, which is sort of the crux obviously of this podcast, and what you have dedicated yourself to. I always ask what got you to this spot. Maybe take us on a little journey on that path to Notre Dame? 

0:12:36.4 AC: It's a very windy path, so I'll give you the Cliff Notes. Well, Notre Dame has actually been a part of my life for my entire life. My father went to Notre Dame, my mother went to St. Mary's. They actually met in high school and he went to Notre Dame and she came here to go to St. Mary's, she worked her way through St. Mary's in what was called at the time the staff student program, she was the first... She's the 11th of 12 children, and she was the first in her family to go to college. And so she had to work, I think, 30 hours a week. And in exchange for that, she got to go to St. Mary's.

0:13:18.1 AC: So they met in high school, they went here together, and then they got married right after they graduated. So Notre Dame has been a big part of my life, football games, and coming back for visits with my family, my sisters, and my parents. And then I went to undergrad at Notre Dame as well. And then I was... I also met my husband in high school and got married when I was young and started teaching and had my children. And then at some point, as I was teaching, I just started thinking, "I have questions that I need answered, and I'm not gonna find the answers here. I really need to understand how to better serve students who struggle."

0:14:18.5 AC: I just felt like I didn't know enough and that I really needed to understand more. So we made our way back to South Bend, and I met Julie Turner, who was the co-founder of ESS, and she became my grad school advisor. And so I started the PhD program here and worked in academic motivation and learning. I have done all my research in classrooms, working with teachers, working with students, and was able to start to craft answers to my questions, which is wonderful. And ESS just became part of my world. The students became part of my heart. The courses, of course, they were crafted by the woman who led me, guided me through my academic journey, so they just became really important to me.

0:15:21.1 AS: Can I ask a couple of quick follow-ups? 

0:15:22.4 AC: Sure. Of course.

0:15:24.9 AS: When you were in the classroom, what grade did you teach? 

0:15:28.1 AC: Primarily fifth grade. And I loved it. I really did. I loved my time teaching. I thought fifth grade was the best grade, I really did. I thought they were the age that they were the most capable a child could be, and they were just right at the border of adolescence. And I just thought that was just perfect. I had so much fun with them.

0:15:45.6 AS: That's great. That's actually a really great way to think about it. Yeah. Just before they sort of crossed into that middle school sort of threshold. Well, great. So then you were thinking that you... Were you encountering some things in the classroom? 

0:16:00.6 AC: Yes. So in particular, students who struggled in school. I tutored after school, I would come early and tutor before school, and I felt like I was putting in so much effort to help students who struggled, but somehow I wasn't quite getting the results that I wanted or helping them enough. And so I thought there must be a better way to help them, and I just don't know what that is. And of course, this was pre-Google so you can't Google strategies to help struggling students. And then even with children who had already developed behavioral issues in the classroom, what were better ways to help them kind of self-regulate and manage their behavior? And I would get advice from teachers who were far more experienced, and I would try that advice and somehow it just wouldn't work and it didn't seem like me.

0:17:00.8 AC: So I just knew that there was more, much more to know and understand. And I was curious about it, and I was at the point where I felt like I needed a different intellectual challenge. I mean, teaching is challenging. Very challenging.

0:17:18.8 AS: For sure.

0:17:20.7 AC: But I needed a different challenge. And so that is why I decided to go back to school and try to answer some of those questions.

0:17:28.3 AS: Great. Thanks for helping to clarify that. And I want our listeners to understand the sort of... What ESS program maybe was, what you were looking for at the time.

0:17:36.8 AC: ESS was an undergraduate program, and when I came back I wanted to go to a psych grad program, so I needed to take some courses that would allow me to apply to the psych grad courses. So I came back and took some psych courses and I finished the ESS minor as a 30-year-old.

0:17:56.8 AS: That's wonderful.

0:18:00.0 AC: At Notre Dame. So that's how I met Julie, and that's why I did a capstone project at 30 years old.

0:18:08.8 AS: That's so great.

0:18:10.3 AC: But I didn't know what I was gonna continue on to do. I thought maybe I'd get a master's maybe in education, maybe I'd do a psych PhD, maybe I'd get a master's in social work. But all of my instructors here were so supportive and they kept saying, "No, you need to... You definitely need to get a PhD. You definitely need to do this." And I thought, "I have two children, how am I supposed to do that?" And they were so supportive that I thought, "You know what, I'm gonna do that." And I applied other places, not just to Notre Dame. And I got in other places. But ultimately working with Julie Turner here, that's what I wanted to do. She was such an important mentor to me. We thought alike. We had the same background in teaching and came to graduate school later in life. We both had two sons and she became kind of like a second mother to me, where she really just helped guide me through my career, through my studies. And yeah, she was just that person for me.

0:19:19.7 AS: What a nice tribute. So then you went... And your master's was in psychology? 

0:19:26.8 AC: Yeah. So I applied for the doctoral program, which is about a five-year program that includes master's work and PhD, so it was developmental psychology. My research focus is academic motivation and learning.

0:19:47.7 AS: Okay, I love that idea of academic motivation.

0:19:51.3 AC: It's a whole area of study in, mostly in educational psychology, but it borrows from theories in developmental psychology, cognitive psychology, social psychology as well, so it allowed me to answer some of, all, actually, of those questions that I had.

0:20:11.3 AS: Oh, good, I'm so glad. I feel like when I was in school, that was maybe not a focus of how I was taught, I feel like it was more, can you memorize this? 

0:20:23.2 AC: So that, I think, captures some of the issues that we have with motivation in school, right. Because memorize this is not engaging, it's not interesting, it prioritizes certain students with certain capacities or capabilities or opportunities rather than being inclusive of everyone and everyone's experiences and everyone's prior knowledge and everyone's strengths. So that is definitely a portion of the issue with motivation and the issues that we see with learning as well.

0:21:02.1 AS: Right, and certainly that works in some cases, and I'm certain that we still have to memorize things. But tell me about that shift for you then, what did you learn in your studies, what do you know that works better? What are you hoping to teach the students that you teach? 

0:21:19.7 AC: Yes, in fact, I was speaking in... There's a psych class on campus that kinda gives an overview of careers and psychology, and I go in every semester and talk about educational psychology, and I told them exactly that, that I had these questions and I went back to school to answer them. And a young woman raised her hand and said,"Did you answer those questions?" I said, "I did." And I said, "And now I get to teach other people the answer to those questions. And how lucky am I that I get to do that?"

0:21:57.7 AS: That's great.

0:22:00.0 AC: So yes. So I would say that what I would, if I could boil it down, it's a very big question, boil it down into kind of a snapshot of what I would want my students to understand is that in order to foster... I think the biggest thing is, when we are designing instruction so that we are optimizing motivation in the classroom, we are also designing instruction that optimizes learning. They are really two sides of the same coin, that motivational instructional strategies are also our best practices for learning. So when we start with the student, start with the student's prior knowledge and prior experiences and we get to understand who they are and where they are in their learning journey, and we design instruction that taps into those experiences and interest and starts where they are, and meets them where they are, students are much more likely to be willing to get involved in it.

0:23:14.9 AC: When we give students things to do that are interesting, that require them to think and problem solve and make sense of things and make connections to other things they know and other experiences they've had in their lives, then they get it, they're more likely to get excited about it and want to engage in it. When we give students opportunities to feel like they're learning and improving and that they can think for themselves and they can contribute to their learning and the ideas in the classroom in a meaningful way, they're more likely to get engaged and learn and want to learn what's going on.

0:24:04.3 AC: When we give them things that are purposeful and meaningful, when we help them to construct not just this kind of mass of disparate facts, right, we help them to construct frameworks and schemas and help them fit the information into these frameworks and make connections and understand how things work, how things work together, then they'll leave with an understanding that endures, rather than a bunch of facts that they'll probably forget down the road, and probably not that far down the road.

0:24:49.6 AC: In motivation literature, we kind of boil it down to... Well, some people it's three big ideas, other people have got four big ideas. If we support students need for autonomy, and autonomy is... There are some misconceptions that it's just about choice. Choice is great, letting students make choices is great, but it's also about giving students the opportunity to think for themselves, to develop their own ideas and strategies to make their own connections and to really give them that kind of meaningful voice in the classroom. When we help students feel like they belong, that they are respected, they're cared for, that they're understood and seen and heard in the classroom, and that they can collaborate meaningfully with students and teachers they're more likely to learn and be engaged.

0:25:42.1 AC: When we help students feel competent, they don't have to feel like they're the best student, but if we help them feel like they can learn and improve, and we help show them that, look, you went from this point to this point, 'cause they have to see it, they have to see that they've improved so they believe, they believe that they can improve, and you have to support them with strategies to help them improve. And when the work that they do is meaningful or relevant or connected to their lives, or they know why it's important to learn that, then they're more likely to get engaged and learn, just learn and understand.

0:26:26.9 AS: Yeah. That makes perfect sense, and I love that that has become the focus. I feel like I can kind of sense that, and I'm not in the classroom like you are. I can sense a change, I can sense a more engaged person and student. Are you feeling that? 

0:26:41.4 AC: You know, it's interesting. I can see that the ACE teachers that I teach in the summer, they all understand this, they know this, and that's mostly because they work with the most amazing faculty members anywhere, but it's interesting that my undergrads, they understand it when they hear it, and it makes sense to them. But many of them, most of them, have not experienced learning in that way. Even the students who went to the best schools, they can talk about a teacher that they remember who did those things, but in general, they had very similar experience to what you're describing, that they were asked to memorize a lot of facts and give it back in the same way it was given to them, and they were very good at it. They were very, very good at it, and they didn't even realize that there was a different way to do things.

0:27:42.3 AS: Right. See, so that's a little bit surprising to me, 'cause I feel like, oh, things have come so far. But what is your hope there? Is your hope to be able to get that to be so it's not just one teacher in the school, right? 

0:27:55.2 AC: Ideally, that's what we would like to do. We've always seen there's a lag or a disconnect in educational research, that where the ideas take a really long time to get into the classroom and a really long time to be applied. There are a lot of reasons for that, but the more students that I can help understand that, whether they go into teaching or any other area in education, or their parents or their community members, or they go into corporations that... It doesn't matter where they are, if they understand this, then it's more likely to be something that they're gonna look for.

0:28:43.1 AC: So on the last day of my educational psychology class, I always have students, I say, no matter what you do in your life, I want you to walk away from this class with three big ideas that you can take into any area of your life. More than likely, they're not gonna understand all the vocabulary or all the terms or everything that we did, but if they can leave with three enduring understandings that are important for their life, and have them think that through, a lot of them latch on to the motivational piece, because that is something, those kind of principles of motivation, autonomy, belonging, of confidence and meaningfulness, purpose, relevance, those are ideas that can be applied anywhere in life, to coaching, to leadership positions, in any work setting, to parenting, to whatever it is, those ideas really cut across just about anything.

0:29:43.8 AS: I agree with you, and actually, I want to talk a little bit about what can you do with ESS in a way? Because I know it's been growing and it's so popular, and that's a tribute to you and all the folks you work with. I know you're gonna say, "It's not just me," and I know you have a wonderful team there, but I do want to talk a little bit more about that. I wonder if we don't start with a little bit of an umbrella to kind of ground our listeners as to what ESS is, where it kind of sits. I know also, I mean, so many congratulations right now for you guys, not only are you the new director.

0:30:19.2 AC: So I wear a lot of hats in ESS at the moment. So I've been the Director of Undergraduate Studies for... This is my third year as Director of Undergraduate Studies, and that role is advising, course planning, event planning, it's pretty much all of the administrative work that has to do with the students. And then, I've just been appointed the Director of the program as well, and I'm really at that... At this point, just kind of learning what that role entails. But I've done some data analysis and written some annual reports, and whenever I have a moment, I would love to just sit down and think about what are my goals for the program in general.

0:31:17.5 AC: We always have some overarching goals, getting students more involved in educational research, trying to recruit more men to the program, increasing diversity and increasing our work in issues of diversity, equity and inclusion, although we have... Really, those are some of the core principles that our program was founded on. So we've always worked in that area, always, but once I get kind of a handle on all this and maybe get to take off one of my hats, [laughter] I would love to really sit down and think about, "What do I want for this program?" Because I care so deeply about it, and I care so deeply about the students who join us.

0:32:01.9 AS: I can tell that you have such a passion for it and that the students are at the core of that. People love taking your classes. They can just tell that you are genuine and care and that that... That is... Partially to me, that's a big hurdle, in the first place, and it's... That's sometimes why those teachers connect with people that you mentioned, maybe one or so in their classes. But you certainly are that person for a lot of people, so we sure appreciate what you're doing. And I know you've hardly had a chance to try to figure out which hat you're wearing at every moment, but we'll have to have you back on and sort of hear how things are going once you can settle into things a little bit more.

0:32:39.0 AS: But I know there are wonderful things already on tap, and I know you'll take those to all kinds of different great levels too, so we're excited, and congratulations again on that new directorship. And then also, I believe the program has been elevated to a supplementary major, so congratulations for that. And I do appreciate you giving our audience a little bit of a grounding of where ESS, or Education, Schooling, and Society, fits in the university, and then sort of what this new supplementary major means for you guys.

0:33:11.6 AC: So yes, I would love to. Originally, the Education, Schooling, and Society program, or ESS, as we call it, was started as an interdisciplinary minor, and it was started by Julie Turner and Stuart Greene in the '90s, I believe, and they started it in response... So we didn't have any sort of educational studies program at all at the university. Any student who wanted to get involved in education would have to take the education program at St. Mary's, which is a teacher prep program. ESS is not a teacher prep program, it's more of an educational studies program, where we are concerned with what are the big questions facing education in the US today. We include studies in educational history, educational law and policy, learning sciences, issues in literacy, STEM, and infused throughout all of those areas are questions about issues of equity and diversity in education.

0:34:26.7 AC: We encourage our students to get involved in educational research. In fact, every student does their own educational research project in their senior year. Our students do this on their own, but we definitely encourage community involvement in some education-related way. Most of our students on their own are engaged in tutoring in the community or working in educational organizations, starting clubs on campus, tutoring at the adult ed program. They're just wonderful people, who definitely, in their hearts, want to make the world a better place through education.

0:35:03.6 AC: So as a minor, students are required to take five courses: The intro course, three electives, and their capstone requirement, their research project. As a major, it allows students to become more specialized. It signals to employers and to the world, to grad programs, that this was one of their primary areas of study. And we had... For years, many of our students took more than the required number of courses because they loved the courses so much. They loved the faculty members. They loved the topics. They just loved the ideas, and so they... I had students that are at graduation reception saying, "I identify with my minor in ESS more than I do with my major," and they loved it.

0:36:00.5 AS: Yeah.

0:36:00.8 AC: So we worked... We, the ESS team, headed by Nicole McNeil, our former director, worked really hard to get this... To get approval to become a supplementary major. And the supplementary major means that... So students can't take it as their only major, it has to be in conjunction with another major, but they are required to take more courses in ESS. And there are five electives now, instead of the three for the minor. And in those five electives, three need to be in a concentration. So they can choose an area to specialize in the learning sciences, comparative education or policy, or language literacy and culture, that's the third area. So they get to specialize in an area of interest, and that concentration is on their transcript, so it really signals that, "This is something that I really cared about and that I was able to specialize in."

0:37:05.5 AS: That sounds wonderful. And that's, honestly, a huge tribute to you and Nicole and all the folks that work with you guys, because I consistently hear on a frequent basis how wonderful you are, and I know lots of students who have taken your courses and just absolutely loved them. And I...

0:37:21.2 AC: Oh, you're so kind.

0:37:22.9 AS: Well... Oh, but it's all earned. Honestly, you're wonderful. And based on what you were just saying, what do people, when they do graduate with this, and I know it's relatively new to have it be as a supplementary major, but are there industries that they tend to go into? 

0:37:36.0 AC: So we do have a fair number of students that go into teaching in a number of different programs, in alternative certification programs, ACE included. We have many go to graduate school and traditional Masters of Ed programs or into PhD programs. We have students who do policy work, we have students who go to law school, we have students who go right into industry and do educational consulting or work in education startups, doing curriculum work or ed tech work. So really, it runs the gamut, but most stay in some sort of education-focused field. And even if they go to law school, they tend to start working in Ed policy or Ed law.

0:38:35.3 AS: Okay, great. But that is very, very varied. [chuckle]

0:38:37.6 AC: It is.

0:38:40.4 AS: There are [chuckle] lots of different ways you can take these courses and really apply them. I know you said your, sort of one of the goals is to recruit young gentlemen, maybe... It sounds like maybe they don't know that there's lots of options, 'cause where they might be able to take this in a different path. Is that kind of true? 

0:39:00.7 AC: I think so, I think so traditionally, in our US culture teaching is looked at as a feminine profession, unfortunately, but historic, it has deep roots in our educational history. And so when they look at ESS and they see education, schooling and society, they tend to see that as a teacher prep program or that's for people who want to be teachers, so clearly that's not for me. And so we try to make it very clear, it's not teacher prep. A lot of our students do not become teachers, although a lot do, and a lot of our young men who come in not intending to be teachers end up spending some time being a teacher, because they come to value what it means to be a teacher and the importance of education and the importance of offering equitable opportunities to all students in this country. So some men are surprised by their response to ESS. So yes, we do tend to have trouble recruiting men into the program, but the men who come to the program are wonderful and they love it.

0:40:16.5 AS: They love it. Yes. So hear that, young gentlemen, get in here.

0:40:22.4 AC: That's right.

0:40:23.1 AS: For sure. Oh, my gosh, I wish I could take some of your classes, maybe I'll just sit in the back.

0:40:26.0 AC: You definitely can, any time you like.

0:40:28.3 AS: Okay, I might just take you up on that, 'cause it does, it really does seem like it's applicable, just in so many ways. And one of the things that's interesting, and I believe this has always been your focus, as you had mentioned, it seemed like when you were first in the classroom, there were people that you kind of realized maybe didn't have all the opportunities as other people may have.

0:40:48.4 AC: So I don't think we can talk about education without talking about the inequities that exist in our society, because the inequities play out in the realm of education, probably more than in almost any other area of our lives. We see the inequities in opportunities affect students' experiences in school from the very beginning, whether it's opportunities to go to pre-school, whether your enriched experiences even before pre-school. To have those really difficult conversations about what the landscape of education looks like in the United States is really an important starting place, and an important place to continue in throughout all of student studies in education.

0:41:38.7 AC: Our hope is that our students become aware of the landscape of education in the US, they become aware of some of the challenges and some of the strengths of US education, and that they each find their place or their path to work to change what needs to be changed and to enhance what is already a strength.

0:42:02.9 AS: It sounds like through the course of this class and others, they continue to get more and more invested based on what you guys are teaching them and continue to want to be one of those people working for solutions maybe. Or better trade-offs? Is that the case? 

0:42:19.9 AC: Yes, definitely, definitely. And every day we hear these uplifting stories. I had a student come to me who's working as a teacher's assistant in a Catholic elementary school right now in her junior year, she's spending 10 hours a week working as a teacher's assistant. She said she spent an hour out in the hallway, working with a student on learning how to estimate in math, and just worked and worked and worked, and finally at the end, the student told her, "I never get this when my Mom tries to explain it to me or when the teacher does, but I got it with you." And she said she almost cried, she was so excited about it. And so we do have students having those positive experiences going out into the world and into our community and into the communities where they live, and making small, positive changes and experiencing that kind of joy of working with and helping children.

0:43:24.7 AS: I feel like you probably never say the work would be necessarily easy, but it's very important. Is that kind of a message that you are trying to get across? And if so, do you think that's helping? 

0:43:37.9 AC: I do, I think that perhaps the message is that we all have a role to play in what happens in the US and US schools, whether that's from a parenting standpoint or a teacher or a policy maker or a school board member, we all have a role to play and we can all effect some sort of positive change, even if it's small scale in our community. And I think that students become more and more aware of the need for change and the need that exists right outside their doors or down their streets, but also broadly. And I think one of my primary motivations for being a part of ESS is our students, they're the most incredible people. The students who self-select into our minor, and our supplementary major tend to be students who care very deeply about other people and about the world, and about making the world a better place.

0:44:39.6 AC: And so getting to spend my time with them is such a gift, so if I can just impart that to them that you are a gift and that your desire to learn about all of these issues and to engage in all of these issues and go out and do something about these issues, that in and of itself is the best part of what I do. I mean, it's just... I feel like it's the privilege of my life to be able to be here and working with ESS students, I really do, I really do.

0:45:19.4 AS: I just got chills, I think that's extremely helpful. So thank you. We're gonna end on that note, right there, but you can just tell how much you care, and I just know that, honestly, that's half the battle, if you're looking at someone that you feel like, I'm not in this alone, I'm here with somebody else who cares and who's gonna help us all grow. So thank you so much for what you do for these students and for your colleagues, and for all of us.

0:45:44.2 AC: That's so sweet, and you say care... Honestly, I have two overarching goals for every class that I walk into, that my students feel cared for as people and as learners. If they feel cared for as people, it means that I see who they are, I understand them, I hear them, I treat them like people. And that I care for them as learners, I'm gonna push them and I'm gonna have high expectations for them, I'm gonna give them tasks worth doing and knowledge that's worth knowing. Those shape every decision I make when I walk into a classroom, and I hope that my students can see and feel that, because it is certainly my top priority.

0:46:30.4 AS: I cannot imagine the scenario where that they can't feel that. So, so grateful for you and the work that you're doing and for your time today, I know that you do have all those hats...

0:46:34.9 AC: Thank you.

0:46:39.2 AS: So thank you for joining us.

0:46:44.0 AC: Well, thank you so much. It was a lot of fun.

0:46:44.5 AS: Thank you. My pleasure, take care.

0:46:45.9 AC: Okay, bye-bye.

0:46:47.4 AS: Thanks, bye.

0:46:48.8 AS: And thank you all for joining us for Think.Pair.Share. If you enjoyed this episode, head on over to Apple Podcasts to subscribe, rate and leave a review, it's very much appreciated. Check out our website at iei.nd.edu/media for this and other goodies. Thanks for listening, and for now, off we go.

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